Build Card Question

[SxS1913]

I had a question I thought this group might be able to help me with.

I recently purchased a lovely little B Grade 16 gauge. The stock was broken and needed some work, but I felt comfortable with that. After I received the gun and posted on Facebook, a member sent me a photo of the build card that indicated this gun’s 26” barrels had been specified as 30” barrels on the build card. Disappointing, but because I bought the gun to hunt with as well as appreciate for its history and character, I don’t feel completely heartbroken.

Now to the question - from looking at this card and other examples I’ve seen online, there appear to be certain specs that were written down twice - stock dimensions and weight. My curiosity is if this duplication is for specs written down when the order was placed (darker writing in the named fields on the card) and documentation of the same specs when the gun was finished (at the bottom of the card in lighter writing). I have seen these duplication of specs on multiple Fox build cards and the example at the to of the Fox forum shows these as well.

If this duplication is for ‘ordered’ and ‘finished’ specs, the photo of the card for my new gun shows 6lbs 6oz at order, and then 6lbs 2oz at time of build completion. The interesting thing is this gun currently weighs 6lbs 1.5oz, and I would think lopping off 4” of barrel would remove more than half an ounce of weight. I have measured the barrels, and there is no choke or taper whatsoever - a true CYL & CYL, so I’m expecting these barrels were cut down at some point. That said, it seems whoever cut them did a very tidy job and I’m wondering if maybe they were done at the factory. The build card does specify “Good even distribution essential” and so maybe the 30” barrels were too front heavy…

I know this is incredibly speculative with maybe a dash of foolish hope. Is there any benefit of ordering a letter for this gun, or will they simply look at the build card and tell me what I already have in this photocopy? Is there more information that can be referenced to tell more of the story on this gun?

[fox-admin]

No question the barrels were cut in my mind, sorry. To me it appears the as finished weight was 6.7 not 6.2. We believe the dimensions at the bottom of the card were "as finished". Could the factory have cut the barrels maybe, but I think it's wishful thinking. I would think if the factory cut the barrels they would have replaced the keels, not sure.

[vaturkey]

My understanding is a letter will provide the same info as the order card. The exception is when there is additional information written on the back of the original order card. We (Fox Collectors Group) have a CD containing photo copies of the factory order cards. We however don't always have a copy of the rear of the order card. Just the way it is. Cody has the actual order cards in their possession, so if there is info written on the back of the order card, they would add it to the factory letter they provide.

PS. In my mind the barrels have been cut. That said Fox chokes are so long I would have thought there would be some choke remaining.

[Silvers]

The numbers under the Choke designations are the pellet counts presumably as tested with the original Cyl and Full chokes and both counts coincide with what would be expected from those constrictions. And as Craig indicated the factory would have replaced the steel barrel keels; what I see in the pic is solid solder. Barrels have been cut, period. But from the look of that aged ivory sight I'd say that had been done long ago.

I searched for 300117 here on the site and don't see where any member asked for that Card copy from the AHFCA. So, someone on Facebook is issuing Card copies? Those who bought the Card CD's from the AHFCA agreed in writing not to use the info except for their own research. I suggest that our Exec Director look into this. Brett, aren't you on that FB group? I think our BD member Jeff is too. Likewise with VA Tom though he isn't a BD member. What's up here gents? frank

[SxS1913]

Thanks all. I also don’t disagree the barrels have been cut. Just curious if there’s a chance that might have been done at the factory. That said, if they’re taking the time to note finished weights and stock dimensions, they would probably have made a note of the barrel length changing. Maybe I’ll send in for a letter anyway and see what comes back.

Also, I’d like to advocate for the member who reached out to me with the build card. They did so with the message “did the seller disclose to you that the barrels were cut?” with the intent of looking out for me to make sure I didn’t get taken advantage of (or that I was aware that I had been taken advantage of). I am happy to pay any fee that might have been bypassed, as I am not trying to circumvent the normal process.

[SxS1913]

Here are some before and after photos of the repair I did to the stock. Pretty happy how it turned out considering where it started. Whoever had repaired the broken stock initially was likely not the same person who cut the barrels, as the barrels seem to be done with an eye to attention/detail, and the stock was clearly not…

The last repair person working on the stock also removed original wood from the crack, unfortunately. Had they not, I think the repair would have been invisible. In any case, I am quite happy with the repair and was able to put in two steel rods through the wrist to stabilize it.

Happy to have this gun and it’s story, warts and all, join me in the grouse woods next year as it was built to do.

[SxS1913]

Before photos:

[SxS1913]

Two more before photos:

[SxS1913]

Photos after the repair:

[vaturkey]

The numbers under the Choke designations are the pellet counts presumably as tested with the original Cyl and Full chokes and both counts coincide with what would be expected from those constrictions. And as Craig indicated the factory would have replaced the steel barrel keels; what I see in the pic is solid solder. Barrels have been cut, period. But from the look of that aged ivory sight I'd say that had been done long ago.

I searched for 300117 here on the site and don't see where any member asked for that Card copy from the AHFCA. So, someone on Facebook is issuing Card copies? Those who bought the Card CD's from the AHFCA agreed in writing not to use the info except for their own research. I suggest that our Exec Director look into this. Brett, aren't you on that FB group? I think our BD member Jeff is too. Likewise with VA Tom though he isn't a BD member. What's up here gents? frank

Frank,

This card was provided by Toolman as his free lookup for this year on the following post on the "Member's Only" forum because of the unusual engraving pattern for a B grade. "Unusual early B Grade 16 gauge engraving."

PS. SxS1913. I'd recommend if you are going to continue to be interested in Fox guns, to join the Fox Collectors Group. Lots of additional information beyond what you see listed on these "Non-Member" forums. There is a yearly fee involved, but you can also join for 3 years as a digital member. Along with the dedicated forums you will also get a quarterly Newsletter either emailed to you or in hard copy depending on what level of membership you purchase. You will also receive one free card lookup per year as part of that membership fee.

[Jeff S]

Adam, I noticed those pictures on Facebook this morning. I think you did a very impressive job. A 16 ga. with 26” barrels will be a delight to carry in the woods and those open chokes will be great for close range grouse and woodcock. I hope you’ll post some pictures of that gun “in the field” this fall.

[Silvers]

Thanks Tom, apparently the Card was never requested by serial number and that’s why a Search didn’t find it. So it seems Tool Man did that on his own after he left his BD role? frank

[vaturkey]

Thanks Tom, apparently the Card was never requested by serial number and that’s why a Search didn’t find it. Do it seems Took Man did that on his own after he left his BD role? frank

Yes. His comments are listed on the post. Regards Tom.

[Silvers]

The last repair person working on the stock also removed original wood from the crack, unfortunately. Had they not, I think the repair would have been invisible. In any case, I am quite happy with the repair and was able to put in two steel rods through the wrist to stabilize it.

Happy to have this gun and it’s story, warts and all, join me in the grouse woods next year as it was built to do.

Yes, all considered, an excellent repair. Just a thought, I know you mentioned steel rods. A heavy hickory dowel (set with acraglass or similar) is good additional reinforcement if you can fixture the stock to drill a hole for it long-axis from the butt end, into the wrist and ending just behind the back tang screw hole. A complex drilling setup to be sure, and to avoid the drill bit coming out somewhere unintended, but if the stock ever needs additional repair any steel rods inside it will complicate things immensely. Heavy hickory ramrods are available from muzzleloading supply sources.

Back to the grouse woods and without a new buttstock that will restart your Fox's time clock! Hoot hoot! What could be better that that. frank

[Foxnut]

I was typing this as others were posting. Apologies for the delay. I see the mystery is solved. I forgot about the topic on the Member’s Section.

Most importantly SxS1913 did a great job of repairing that stock and sharing the before and after pics and repair process. Well done!!

From Silvers;

“I searched for 300117 here on the site and don't see where any member asked for that Card copy from the AHFCA. So, someone on Facebook is issuing Card copies? Those who bought the Card CD's from the AHFCA agreed in writing not to use the info except for their own research. I suggest that our Exec Director look into this. Brett, aren't you on that FB group? I think our BD member Jeff is too. Likewise with VA Tom though he isn't a BD member. What's up here gents? frank”

Frank, I went back and reviewed the FB post on the aforementioned gun. There was no divulging or posting of the card on that FB post that I could see. I can tell you it wasn’t me who shared the card if that is what is being suggested/insinuated. If someone once owned the gun or pulled the card for their info I have no way of knowing. I do fully agree that if someone has a set of cards that they shouldn’t be sharing per the terms of purchase. So to answer your question directly Frank I do not know “What’s up here”, but a good reminder to all of us regarding the terms agreed upon in writing when purchasing a set of cards. Thanks for bringing the topic up. Brett