Baltimore Arms D grade?
Baltimore Arms D grade?
Hi, I think I found a BAltimore Arms D grade double gun today. How can I find out more about it? Barrels are mirror and no dents. Locks up real tight. Very dirty, haven't cleaned it yet. Very excited as its strait grip and has at least 14" LOP which is great for me.
Last edited by kcordell on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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MARSHFELLOW
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
Sure would like to see more pics. WoW!
tjw
tjw
IN GOD WE TRUST. SPE Skeet & Uplands and AH Fox vent rib guns a specialty
Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
Yep. I own it as of 11am today. Real happy. Can't tell if what I paid was right or not. Can't find reference anywhere.
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Researcher
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
Great gun!!! My two-part series on Baltimore Arms Co. was in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Ten, Issues 1 and 3. Very interesting that 5652.D was a 30-inch Damascus barrel gun that sold in the November 2002, Butterfield Auction. I'm pretty sure Tony G. bought it and it has since moved on. Here are pictures from the online auction catalogue --
Serial number 5651 was an unfinished gun that was completely profiled like a D-Grade but had no checkering on the stock and was unengraved. Probably one of many guns-in-work that were sold during the receivership. It was for sale at the Maryland Arms Collectors Association Gun Show in 1999 and at least a couple of years either way from that. In my years of recording Baltimore Arms Co. guns it looks like there was a gaggle of D-Grade 1902 Model 12-gauges in the 173x range, and this group of 1904 Model D-Grade 12-gauges in the 565x range. It appears from your picture the 5650.D is a straight grip with Damascus barrels. Length? The other D-Grades I've recorded have all been full pistol grips with Damascus barrels, except for the unfinished gun which has Monumental Steel barrels. Could we please see more pictures of this gun?
Contrary to much popular belief, these guns have nothing to do with Ansley H. Fox. They are a Frank A. Hollenbeck design. Ansley left his partners in Baltimore in the Fox Gun Co., Balto., MD., U.S.A. in early 1900 to become a professional shooter for Winchester. The partners formed a new corporation under the laws of West Virginia, Baltimore Arms Co., with their principle place of business Baltimore, Maryland. The early Hollenbeck designed guns they built at the old Fox factory are considered 1900 Models. These seem to have serial numbers from 1000 into the 14xx range. They built a new factory at the corner of South Sharp and Stockholm Streets. Meanwhile, Ansley was on the road shooting for the big W, and moved his family to Philadelphia. By November 1902, he had incorporated Philadelphia Arms Co. and by August 1903, they had broken ground for their new factory in the Germantown area of Philadelphia. Back in Baltimore, the Baltimore Arms Co. moved into their new factory in March 1901, and brought out a very slightly revised design gun, 1902 Model - stronger cocking toes on the hammers and a slightly different sear and sear spring, and added two new grades the Trap Gun and the D-Grade, and added 16-gauge guns to the line. They continued to operate through 1903, and revised the shape of the receivers to have rebates for securing the head of the stock, like the gun in question, and these are known as 1904 Models. The highest serial number 1902 Model I've recorded is in the 52xx range, and the lowest 1904 Model in the 54xx range. Baltimore Arms Co. was in a continuing negative cash flow cycle and just shortly after the Great Baltimore Fire, which missed the factory by a few blocks, the creditors pulled the plug. They worked through the summer on reorganization plans, but by early fall it appeared hopeless and a receiver was appointed.
Serial number 5651 was an unfinished gun that was completely profiled like a D-Grade but had no checkering on the stock and was unengraved. Probably one of many guns-in-work that were sold during the receivership. It was for sale at the Maryland Arms Collectors Association Gun Show in 1999 and at least a couple of years either way from that. In my years of recording Baltimore Arms Co. guns it looks like there was a gaggle of D-Grade 1902 Model 12-gauges in the 173x range, and this group of 1904 Model D-Grade 12-gauges in the 565x range. It appears from your picture the 5650.D is a straight grip with Damascus barrels. Length? The other D-Grades I've recorded have all been full pistol grips with Damascus barrels, except for the unfinished gun which has Monumental Steel barrels. Could we please see more pictures of this gun?
Contrary to much popular belief, these guns have nothing to do with Ansley H. Fox. They are a Frank A. Hollenbeck design. Ansley left his partners in Baltimore in the Fox Gun Co., Balto., MD., U.S.A. in early 1900 to become a professional shooter for Winchester. The partners formed a new corporation under the laws of West Virginia, Baltimore Arms Co., with their principle place of business Baltimore, Maryland. The early Hollenbeck designed guns they built at the old Fox factory are considered 1900 Models. These seem to have serial numbers from 1000 into the 14xx range. They built a new factory at the corner of South Sharp and Stockholm Streets. Meanwhile, Ansley was on the road shooting for the big W, and moved his family to Philadelphia. By November 1902, he had incorporated Philadelphia Arms Co. and by August 1903, they had broken ground for their new factory in the Germantown area of Philadelphia. Back in Baltimore, the Baltimore Arms Co. moved into their new factory in March 1901, and brought out a very slightly revised design gun, 1902 Model - stronger cocking toes on the hammers and a slightly different sear and sear spring, and added two new grades the Trap Gun and the D-Grade, and added 16-gauge guns to the line. They continued to operate through 1903, and revised the shape of the receivers to have rebates for securing the head of the stock, like the gun in question, and these are known as 1904 Models. The highest serial number 1902 Model I've recorded is in the 52xx range, and the lowest 1904 Model in the 54xx range. Baltimore Arms Co. was in a continuing negative cash flow cycle and just shortly after the Great Baltimore Fire, which missed the factory by a few blocks, the creditors pulled the plug. They worked through the summer on reorganization plans, but by early fall it appeared hopeless and a receiver was appointed.
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
Wow great data! The barrels are 30" Damascus and yes it's a strait stock. I will post more pics later when I have some good daylight. Also just finished your two articles from the 1999 era. Great information and a thorough story in both.
Do you have any records on what the items above sold for at the Butterfield auction?
Do you have any records on what the items above sold for at the Butterfield auction?
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loggy
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
The current DGJ has an article on a Syracuse Arms Hollenbeck D3 gun. This gun predates Hollenbeck's move to his own company. The gun was discovered by "Marshfellow". It is also a beautiful high grade gun.
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Researcher
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
That Syracuse Arms Co. D# is a decade earlier than this Baltimore Arms Co. D-Grade. Frank Hollenbeck left Syracuse Arms Co. about 1895 and founded the Hollenbeck Hygenic Bicycle Seat Co. and made bicycle seats in the late 1890s. Then by 1900 he is in Baltimore, hooked up with Ansley's old partners there, then very soon moves out to West Virginia and founds the Hollenbeck Gun Co. to make his double and three-barrel guns, using his same bolting patent, Patent No. 643,601, granted Feb. 13, 1900. That date is stamped on the watertables of both Baltimore Arms Co. guns and the Hollenbeck/Three-Barrel/Royal Gun Co. guns. Somewhere in my stuff I have a photocopy of a magazine page with ads for three companies building Frank A. Hollenbeck designed guns.
By the way, does 5650.D have an original Baltimore Arms Co. butt plate?
By the way, does 5650.D have an original Baltimore Arms Co. butt plate?
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
Yes it has the correct Baltimore Arms. Baltimore Maryland but plate. Nothing altered on the gun.
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DarylC
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
Kev,
Great find! Let's go shoot it. As usual, thanks to Dave for his info.
Great find! Let's go shoot it. As usual, thanks to Dave for his info.
Owning a Fox is not a spectator sport.
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MARSHFELLOW
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
Researcher, thanks for the good info.....
tjw
tjw
IN GOD WE TRUST. SPE Skeet & Uplands and AH Fox vent rib guns a specialty
Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
Researcher,
Again, thanks for all the GREAT information both here and your two DGJ sections. Would there be anything that I can assist you with information wise regarding this particular gun? Do you need any specific pictures?
Also, I am just curious, are there individuals that collect Baltimore Arms or is this just one of those Crescent Arms type of gun.
Again, thanks.
Kevin
Again, thanks for all the GREAT information both here and your two DGJ sections. Would there be anything that I can assist you with information wise regarding this particular gun? Do you need any specific pictures?
Also, I am just curious, are there individuals that collect Baltimore Arms or is this just one of those Crescent Arms type of gun.
Again, thanks.
Kevin
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Researcher
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Re: Baltimore Arms D grade?
I guess there are some of us that crazy!! I've been hoping for a complete set of steel barrel Baltimore Arms Co. guns!! I've now got 12-gauges in AS-, BS-, CS-grades and Trap Gun, but have yet to see a DS-Grade. Then I guess I could start on looking for 16-gauges in all five grades!! Dont have a picture of my AS-Grade loaded in Photobucket.
BS-Grade --
CS-Grade --
Trap Gun --
So far, I've only recorded two Trap Guns, mine and the one in McIntosh's book. Mine has been restocked, but I still have the original stock. The other one has a worse restock, was I believe owned by Cote' at the time of the book, then at one time Tim Sheldon had it for sale and more recently Jay Shacter had it for sale. These two Trap Guns are consecutive serial number 1902 Models. So far more D-quality Baltimore Arms Co. guns have come to light than either C-quality or Trap Guns.
The Baltimore Arms guns are a much better quality gun in both materials and workmanship than anything Crescent Fire Arms Co. ever built. In the receivership many pairs of barrel tubes were bought by both Lefever Arms Co,. and Hunter Arms Co. as I recall. So, there are very likely 1905 and later L.C. Smiths and Lefevers with barrels made from tubes originally intended for Baltimore Arms Co. guns.
BS-Grade --
CS-Grade --
Trap Gun --
So far, I've only recorded two Trap Guns, mine and the one in McIntosh's book. Mine has been restocked, but I still have the original stock. The other one has a worse restock, was I believe owned by Cote' at the time of the book, then at one time Tim Sheldon had it for sale and more recently Jay Shacter had it for sale. These two Trap Guns are consecutive serial number 1902 Models. So far more D-quality Baltimore Arms Co. guns have come to light than either C-quality or Trap Guns.
The Baltimore Arms guns are a much better quality gun in both materials and workmanship than anything Crescent Fire Arms Co. ever built. In the receivership many pairs of barrel tubes were bought by both Lefever Arms Co,. and Hunter Arms Co. as I recall. So, there are very likely 1905 and later L.C. Smiths and Lefevers with barrels made from tubes originally intended for Baltimore Arms Co. guns.
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