Tubes don't touch

[Silvers]

Actually this post relates to nice looking but ill fitting stocks, but now that I have your interest I'll share a story.

Last Sunday while shooting with my sporting gang I put 100 rounds through a new to me 16-gauge Winchester Model 12, a Nickle Steel gun made in 1920 per the serial number. She has a replacement stock, knockout wood but someone had it done up with a lot of down pitch. The top of the Winchester Logo HRBP juts out and recoil impacted heavily on the upper part of my shoulder socket; about half way through the course my shoulder started feeling sore but the Winny was doing well and I went on to finish the round. 1 ounce Remington Game Loads at 1200 speed as per the box flap.

Then on Wednesday we were out again and I tried shooting one of my regular 12-gauge sporting guns but after 12 shots I gave up because my shoulder started hurting. So today I decided to take it easy and recuperate with a 410. She's a Browning Lightning over/under, 1985 gun with 28" tubes. Our gang shot a Memorial shoot for a late friend at a different club, tough targets with lots of simos and many far out for 2-1/2" 410 shells with 1/2 ounce of 7-1/2 shot. Everyone except yours truly was shooting a 12-gauge. We had nine in the gang and the top shooter ended up with a 77/100. Anyway, the 410 Lightning came in with 60/100 = not too shabby all considered and pretty easy on my shoulder. Here she is with tubes not touching at the muzzles, not that it matters.

Back to that Model 12, once I get some time I'll cut a wedge off the back end of its stock and refit the buttplate for about 1" of pitch. Just goes to show that despite many going nutso and being junkies for nicely figured wood, stocks and particularly custom stocks must fit. What good is a shotgun with knockout wood that looks so very nice but can't be shot more than a few times for practice or while hunting? Last pic shows what I'm talking about.


frank

That upper ruler is resting flat on the M12 barrel rib.

[Jeff S]

Nice shooting Frank, and that's a dandy looking little .410. I really like those Browning Citori "Lightning's" with the round pistol grip. As you noticed (on the cover of a magazine) I have a 20 gauge citori, however mine has a straight grip. A few years ago I walked into a nice gun shop with enough cash in my pocket to purchase a really nice 20 gauge lighting. Unfortunately, there was an issue with the butt plate and the deal fell apart.

[Researcher]

Good shooting, Frank!! In the 48 or so years since its introduction, the Citori has certainly proved itself to be a best value in the over/under market. As I recall, like the Superposed, the smallbores are all made on the 20-gauge frame.

Muzzles don't touch on any of my RBLs --

[Jeff S]

Dave, that's a very interesting picture.

[DarylC]

Wow Frank that is a brutal amount of downpitch so no wonder it was digging in to your shoulder. I found the Remy game loads in 1 oz. are pretty stiff even in a gun that fits taking in consideration that most 16's are fairly lightweight.

What's the DAH on that stock? Can't tell from your photo with the ruler. Do you think you can get that stock back to a pitch that would be shootable? Nice Browning. Great shooting that smallbore against those 12's.

[Silvers]

Thanks Jeff, Dave and Daryl. Actually the M12's stock dims are very good for me at 1-3/8 by 2-3/8 by 14-3/8" LOP and I shoot her well. Weight 6^14.
Choke measures 18 points, about a "strong Modified". I haven't measured the down pitch but it's obviously excessive. I'll try trimming the stock to get about 1" of pitch and if it ends up a little short with the HRBP I'll add a vintage Winchester recoil pad that run about 7/8" thick. I've got several good/righteous ones in my parts stash that came off 12-gauge Winchester guns. First work is to make up a trim jig for my disc sander.

I hate to cut that butt because the Winchester HRBP is fitted to a properly curved back surface on that stock but ya gotta do what you must.

frank

[vaturkey]

I've always heard degree's of pitch? I've heard that from 1 to 5 is normal. Perhaps I'm a bit confused.

[Stan Hillis]

Interesting post and pics, Frank. Imagine old Frank shooting a .410! Didn't think you even owned one.

I've got several of them, all regulated very well whether S x S or O/U. Muzzles touch on none of them. The FAIR Verona O/U, and the Dickinson and FAIR Iside S x Ss are all 30". I dearly love taking a limit of doves with one of them. Wait patiently until they're in range, don't take longish shots, and you can do very well with one.

Hope you get that M12 pitch "straightened out" to suit you.

SRH

[DarylC]

Well now that Stan has let the proverbial smallbore out of the bag I must admit I was wasn't surprised to see that Frank shot a .410 and still was in the race. As they say it ain't the arrow.

I remember a few years ago I had a Parker 12 with a checkered butt that had the same downpitch problem as Frank's gun. It not only beat me but I couldn't keep it on my shoulder for the second shot. So I took a slip on pad I had that had a waffle like interior base, and after turning it inside/out, trimmed the heel portion to almost nothing which gave me the pitch I needed at the toe. It wasn't pretty but it worked as I couldn't bring myself to cut a checkered butt.

Nice to see you back Stan.

[Sporrns]

Frank, I shoot an identical .410 Citori and had it out last Sunday with our usual group. I like to shoot it when I feel my gun handling (mount, head position on stock, follow through etc.) is getting sloppy with my larger gauge guns. The .410 gets your attention to these details in a hurry! It is a wonderful handling gun and the screw chokes always bring hoots from the big bore guys! Kevin

[Silvers]

Actually gents I have two 410 shotguns, the Browning Citori Lightning 28” I’ve written about here, and a Fox Model B-ST 26” vent rib double gun made in Chicopee as I recall in 1959. Both are fun to shoot and Kevin is correct, the 410 is a great clays teacher ..... it’s not very forgiving if you’re not spot on. Miss and you better figure out why and correct.

The term “Pitch” refers to the angle of the buttstock relative to the plane of the barrel or top rib. Pitch can be simply/quickly measured in the traditional way by placing the gun against a wall with the butt flat on the floor and the breech against the wall, then measuring in inches + fractions of an inch from the muzzle to the wall. This is a “quick and dirty” technique. Of course the wall must be exactly perpendicular to the floor and the longer the barrel the greater that measurement will be. Note that a very small change in the angle of the buttstock will make a large difference in the Pitch inch measurement.

A more detailed Pitch angle measurement can be made using a special protractor with one long leg resting on the barrel rib and the other leg against the buttplate or pad. I am attaching two pics (1 and 2) showing such a rig on the Model 12 Winchester 16-gauge gun that’s referred to in this thread. Here the Pitch included angle measures 80-degrees (expand inset #2). You can also say it’s 10-degrees from the perpendicular. That accounts for how the top of the buttplate juts out and this Winchester is very uncomfortable to shoot during long strings.

Pics may be expanded by double clicking

The 3rd pic shows my protractor in use on a Model 12 Winchester 20-gauge gun circa 1950 with factory stock. Its Pitch angle measures 87-degrees = 3-degrees from perpendiclar. I’ve shot this gun quite a bit over years now and she’s pretty comfortable when doing a 100 bird sporting course.

4th and 5th pics show a Syracuse Lefever G Grade double gun that I shoot particularly well and is comfortable over long strings of shots. Pitch angle is also 87-degrees/3-degrees from perpendicular

This post was intended for Tom with a question and those who are vague on gunstock Pitch. I hope it's helpful and if so I'd appreciate your feedback on my time and effort to post.

frank

[MARSHFELLOW]

Thank you for that explanation Frank.
tjw

[ROMAC]

Frank,

I always learn something from your posts. I never took shop nor do I have a mechanical or engineering background.

I really appreciate the attention to detail and effort that it takes to share your knowledge. I might even have to get some of the angle measuring gadgets you have handy to add to my "gun buying" kit which includes a digital postal scale, chamber gauges, tape measure and the rudimentary tiered brass choke/gauge contraption sold by CSMC.

Roger

[eightbore]

Maybe Frank will comment on Roger's lack of a bore micrometer in his gun buying kit. Knowing how great a gun buyer Roger is, I'll bet the last two items to be added to his kit are a bore micrometer and a checkbook, in that order.

[Jeff S]

Frank, nice pictures and great explanation. Did you make that giant protractor, or were you able to buy it somewhere? Several yeas ago, while changing pads, Brad Bachelder changed the pitch on a Fox of mine. He said that it would shoot better, and it does. Now I wish that I had paid more attention to what Brad was doing.