2 1/2 vs 2 3/4 shell?

[ranmcc]

I have a Utica Savage Fox Sterlingworth that everyone that measures the chambers says it is 2 3/4 it was shipped in 1936 according to the letter.
I have always shot 2 3/4 RST shells. When I pattern the gun with those shells I get a fairly tight pattern. I did try a couple of 1200fps shells and got a wider pattern.
The pattern with RST shells though has a number of wholes and was wondering if I would get a better pattern with the 2 1/2 inch shells. The left barrel is measuring cyl and the right ic. Just wondering about getting a better pattern.

[Twice Barrel]

I did try a couple of 1200fps shells and got a wider pattern.
The pattern with RST shells though has a number of wholes and was wondering if I would get a better pattern with the 2 1/2 inch shells. The left barrel is measuring cyl and the right ic. Just wondering about getting a better pattern.

I doubt that you will get better patterns with a 2 1/2 inch shell versus a 2 3/4 inch shell. Shotgun barrels are like some women...some will do everything well....others are a bit more particular. Experiment with different brands and components and use the one that suits your hunting/shooting situation the best.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Try different shells. Maybe the 2 1/2 will pattern better. Actually, the more shot in a shotshell, the more setback occurs at the back of the pattern. That results in "fliers" and a less dense pattern. For the most part, 1 oz patterns better than 1 1/8, 7/8 patterns better than 1 oz, etc. There are always exceptions to the rule, but this holds up very well especially in the larger gauges.

[fox shooter]

Mike. I didn't see what gauge you were shooting, but we've been loading 3/4 ounce for our 20s and 7/8 ounce for the 12s. The PSIs are 5600-9000 and the FPSs are anywhere from 950-1200. They pattern nicely and do drop the birds. I load 2 1/2 .410s with 1/2 ounce or less. Have never patterned them, but they drop the birds as good or better than the larger gauges. Yes, less is better, I think McIntosh has mentioned this in More Shotguns and Shooting. I use the .410s a lot for quail, but the 16 Stery brings home a limit with a couple handfuls of shells!
Chris.............AZ

[Silvers]

Just some personal comments fwtw. Personally I don't believe in that "less is better" phrase. Sure you can get nice uniform patterns with 3/4 or 7/8 ounce in a 12-gauge, or 3/4 ounce or even less in a 20-gauge - and such loads can crush targets. I see it every week on the sporting courses. And I certainly understand the rationale for practice shooting with lead prices continuing to rise. But go to a big registered tournament and see how many of the top shots are shooting 7/8 ounce in 12 ga. Another consideration - game animals and birds aren't clay targets and the humane/most effective name of the game is: number of proper size shot on target. There's an old saying here in the east, in this example using 1 ounce vs. 1-1/8 ounce in 12 ga: "when the gun goes bang that extra 1/8 ounce has to go somewhere". You can modify that saying for any smaller than usual shot charge in any gauge.

Worried about high pressure and setback effect/deformed pellets when loading heavy charges of shot? Use a slower burning powder. Sure, you'll use more of that expensive powder but what's a few cents more per shell?

Silvers

[Mike of the Mountain]

Fox Shooter,I was speaking of 12g loads. I disagree with Frank on the 1 1/8 over 1 oz. When FITASC went to 1 oz max, there was much crying and gnashing of teeth!! But, scores went up due to better patterns. The "big boys" would win whether they use 1 1/8 or 1 or 7/8 oz because they put the muzzles at the right place. That extra 1/8 oz on the edge of the pattern might give you that occasional "magic pellet", but if I'm trapping, there was no visible piece. Personally, I never use more than 1 oz in the 12g for clays. Only time I shoot clays with 1 oz + is in the 10g gun. If I miss a bird with 1 oz it's not because I'm light 1/8 oz of pellets, it's because I didn't do my part behind the gun.

[Silvers]

MIke, I've also read and heard that scores got better when the Fitasc max load was reduced. But I've never seen an objective test with 32 gram versus 28 gram loads - using the same shot at the same velocity, by the same shooter with the same gun on the same parcour. Every Fitasc parcour was/is different and there's no way to compare the scores at let's say the 32 gram Fitasc event at M&M on date X, versus the current standard 28 gram scores at the the Nat'l Gun Club on date Y. Apples and oranges as they say. Hey next year let's drive down to the PA State Trap shooting championship at Elysburg and see how many of the winners used 7/8 ounce loads. I stand by that old saying ..... if shooting for score with a 12-gauge, I'm better off with 1-1/8 ounce than 1 ounce. And way better off with 1-1/8 ounce than 7/8. "Extra shot have to go somewhere".

Example: I'm at your club and shoot a registered tournament with a mix of 1 and 1-1/8 ounce 12 ga loads. Dr. Evil Mike set the targets and I finish with a score of X. Then the next week Mild Manner Mike softens the targets for a charity/red hatter event, and I shoot with the same gun and chokes but with 7/8 ounce loads. My score is X + 8. Does that mean that less is better?

[Mike of the Mountain]

Yes, it is!! As for trap, make sure you bring 2 sets of blinders and shell catchers, sure don't want to upset any anal retentive shooters now, do we? BWAHAHAHAHA!!! More importantly, 7/8, 1 or 1 1/8 oz is irrelevant. Let's discuss 8's vs 7 1/2's, that's the real important debate!!!

[fox shooter]

I probably made a contradictive statement earlier by saying "less is better". I think Mike is on to what I was saying. I was saying it throws a more concentrative pattern with less shot. I don't shoot targets or competitively like Silvers, so I'm no authority. I do know when shooting my little .410 SXS with a 1/2 ounce, I shoot as well or better than those throwing up 1 1/8 ounces. I drop the pigeons, Eurasion dove and quail with no problem. A larger bore or gauge may give an advantage, but it really depends on the person behind the gun pulling the trigger. Some days are productive and some days we should've just stayed home. I'm not so much a conservative loader, I load with what works for me, sometimes more and sometimes less. The season is just around the corner!!!!

Chris............AZ

[Mike of the Mountain]

Good call Chris! It is the Indian, not the arrow!! Best wishes for a successful 2014 season!! FWIW, I shot a tourney Sunday with 80 entries. I used my 1873 Parker underlifter 12g w/ 2 1/2" chambers. I shot 2 1/2" RST 7/8 and 3/4 oz shells. Shot an 85/100 on the course and shot 44/50 on the 5-Stand. Every miss was attributed to a lack of focus or plain old carelessness, not because I used a minimum shot charge!!

[Vernal pike]

When international trap dropped their payload, less than 7/8oz , was there a corresponding drop in score?
Somebody can look it up, I don't know.
Just wondering because all variables would be constant in that game, unlike FITASC.

I never understood the less is better principle expounded by McIntosh and others even though I am a self proclaimed McIntosh groupie.
Have you ever wondered how in the world could a 7/8 12gauge load throw more pellets at a target than a 1-1/4 oz load?
Yes, there may be more theoretical shot deformation ( I say theoretical due to antimony hardening of shot) and a poorer % and a longer shot string, but are there really less pellets at the target?

Andy Duffy and Jon Kruger could probably could probably kick all our butts with a red rider BB gun. It doesn't mean that one pellet is better than 400.


Vernal

[fox shooter]

Vernal, I'm going to side with Mike and "McIntosh" on this one. I think focus is the key factor here. Like golf, it's not the club that wins the game, it's the person swinging it. I'll be the first to admit my bad days out weigh my good days in the field. I took McIntosh's tip or advice and tried less and I think I'm hitting the birds with more of a punch. Especially with my .410 rounds, I'm loading just under a 1/2 ounce in order to get a nice pre-crimp. I will out shoot the guy next to me shooting 1 1/8 ounce loads. I shoot the 1 ounce 12s and 7/8 20s. The 16 I load up 1 ounce, seems like good load for quail. I don't take loading stats that serious, I more or less use what always works for me. Some days I might as well bring a bag of shot to the field and grab handfuls of shot and throw it in the air. My hat's off to those of you who shoot targets and compete. I tried 5 stand last year and it will separate the men from the boys! Keep your pressures low and enjoy the up coming season!

Chris.............AZ

[Vernal pike]

Foxshooter,

Perhaps if you put an 1/8 oz load in the 410, your shooting would be even better!
Give it a try and let us know of the results.

[fox shooter]

Vernal, you're a genius! Should I also crimp the shell at 2 inches? Read your McIntosh "More Shotguns and Shooting", chapter 7, "Shot Stringing". Pages 59 and 60 highlight on the point I was trying to get across. I say load and shoot what works best for you and don't worry what others say. Shoot 1 1/4 ounces if you think it makes the kill, but in the end it's up to the person behind the gun to get the shot to the target, regardless of the pellet count. Happy hunting or shooting!
Chris..............AZ

[Vernal pike]

At what point does "less=more" transform into "less=less"?
Yes, I've read all the MM books but was always wondering about that shot string thing. In one essay he writes of heavy loads having a shot string with holes big enough to throw an Irish Setter through and in another essay he uses a "pack of poodles" instead of the Irish Setter analogy.
But, can a flushing pheasant fly faster than the shot sting coming at it to create a miss or poor pellet numbers at the bird from a heavier load with a longer shot string?

Here are some numbers for a couple of #6 pheasant loads.
1-3/8oz has 300 pellets while 1oz of 6's has 230 pellets, a difference of 70.
Let's say that if the 1oz load has a shot string of three feet with 200 pellets in the first two feet and the rest in the back one foot, and the 1 3/8 oz load had a longer 4 foot shot string, would the heavier load actually put less pellets in the leading 24 inches of the shot string?
And, can any bird outfly a longer shot string coming at it at 800 feet per second wether the shot sting is 3,5 or 7 feet long?

Chris, I agree with you that the most important thing is to point the gun in the right place.
I'm not saying that the shot string theory written by MM is true or false. I was just wondering how more pellets out the muzzle can result in less pellets at the target.
Has Tom Roster or Brister or anybody else done any experiments on this to imply that in a hunting situation shot string length really matters? Please chime in here. Looking for data.
Any Fox Collector club members physicists?


Also Chris FYI,
I shoot 1 oz 8's in competition even though 1 1/8 is permitted.
1 1/4 for geese and 3/4 oz 28 gauge for quail and grouse.

Sincerely,

Vernal.