Fox Collectors

I am in contact with a dealer who lists on Guns International. He has an early grade B (not a BE) 12 DT with 30" Krupp Flustahl (Fluid Steel) barrels- and he lists it as a heavy duck gun- but he shows the weight at 7 lbs. 2 ounces- Questions arise- Did Fox put the numerical weight stamping on their barrels always, even on the Krupp tubes they imported from Germany (pre-Lusitania era of course)-- can a 12 gauge "duck gun" with 30" tubes weigh 7 lbs. 2 ounces from that era. He said the gun has 2 & 3/4" full length chambers, was this a factory special order perhaps? I thought the pre-1934 era Fox guns in 12 gauge had 2 & 5/8" chambers as std- the Super Fox HE being the obvious exception. This is an extractor gun- same exact Fox gun but with ejectors, aprox. what % more in pricing would ejectors bring over extractors?

Any dealer who lists a 7 lb 2 oz gun as a "heavy duck gun" doesn't know a duck from a doughnut!

Or perhaps that dealer is not trustworthy?

Either way I'd look elsewhere.

Some of the very early Ansley H. Fox doubles had Krupp barrels that in addition to the normal Krupp roll-stamp on the underside of the tubes had a second line that said HEAVY WEIGHT. I haven't really narrowed down when the 1 to 4 numbers began appearing on the Krupp tubes, but I do own Krupp barrel 12-gauges that are number 3 and number 4.

From what we know, the "standard" A.H. Fox Gun Co. 12-gauge chamber was 2 5/8 inch, intended for 2 3/4 inch paper shells. A.H. Fox Gun Co. would chamber for longer shells when the customer requested, so in theory, if a gun left the Fox factory in Philadelphia with a 2 3/4 inch chamber it was intended for 2 7/8 inch shells, and a gun intended for 3-inch shells would have a 2 7/8 inch chamber. My personal feeling is there are a whole lot more Ansley H. Fox shotguns out there being advertised with 2 3/4 inch chambers, than left North 18th Street and Windrim Avenue with 2 3/4 inch chambers. My feeling is worrying about that 1/8 inch is much ado about nothing. Others have a different opinions and are entitled to them.

In actuality, very few of the North American ammunition company's nominally 2 3/4 inch plastic cases are much over 2 5/8 inch long anyway.

Thank you to both responders. I have asked the seller to verify the weight stamp numbers on this older Fox grade B-- have not yet heard back from him, as he may be at the SHOT show in Las Vegas. If you wish to see this advertise B "Duck Gun" the Guns International number is 100338829.

The gun has been listed for a year or two looking for someone who wants a 7 lb 2 oz heavy duck gun

Sorry but I would look elsewhere...

Thanks- My 12 2& 3/4" 1 ounce RST Lites are 2.5" unfired, and 2.65" after being fired. How important are the following two things I noted in deciding on a reputable gun dealer?:: The rating system, like Platinum Seller or Verified Seller GI uses? And is it relevant that a seller have a mailing address and both a land phone and Fax number in his contact data?

If you want to buy the gun then do so. I have bought a half dozen AH Fox guns since first looking at that add with those dark photos.

If your gut warns you then you ought to pay attention...

It is surprising to me, not having any knowledge of photography, how some gun dealers have good close in photos showing good details, and other do not. Being a man who believes 100% in both: Murphy's Law, and also the late President Reagan's sage advice "Trust is OK, but always cut the cards" I am setting into motion a test run regarding the dealer who is offering the B Grade Fox 12 bore. I went through his other gun listings and found a Greener 12 bore BLE- and the ad copy stated that rework and refurbishing were done on this Greener by a Ken Owen and also Keith Kearcher. So I asked him to provide letterhead copies of the invoices tied to the serial number of the Greener so I can verify that. We shall see what happens. If I don't get copies of the invoices, with an address and phone or Fax number so that I can contact either Mr. Owen and/or Mr. Kearcher, that will "speak volumes". My position is clear on that- if you are going to advertise a shotgun or rifle that was repaired by any well-known gunsmith or gunsmithing company: Mr. DelGrego, Mr. Turnbull, Mr. Hamblin, etc- then you should have the paperwork provenance to back up that claim.

A perfect example of this train of thought can be seen on Gun Brokers- a gentleman from NH has a nice looking A Grade 12- and he states in the ad therein that it was refinished by Mr. Freddy Brunner, an LC Smith expert gunsmith who lives near LA, Calif. I asked him (the seller) to fax me a copy of the invoice from said Mr. Brunner, tied to that Fox he is trying to sell- no reply as of yet- so again, the caveat emperor prevails, for those of us who prefer not be ripped off in a gun sale transaction. Too bad we can't buy and sell Fox guns here, but rules are rules, and there is always a valid reason for their existence.

You can buy and sell guns here.

You just need to become a paid annual member. You will even get a free serial number lookup once a year included in the membership, plus access to the members only section. It is worth every penny.

Directions are on the main page under the Links section.

That is good to know. However, as I have not yet purchased any GRADED AH Fox shotgun to date, wouldn't it be more fitting to wait until I actually have one, then join. The problem I can see, as a non-member, is the "issues" that can arise from buying from an association member- whereas buying from a licensed gun dealer, if he is legitimate and honest (and most of them aren't I believe) then your issues remain between yourself and possibly your attorney, and the dealer, and not a member. But as a non-member, I very much appreciate the generous amount of good advice and guidance provided here.

G-town, its' $30 bucks a year to join. The knowledge is invaluable, and may save you many times that amount if anything you learn keeps you from making a mistake.

Your decision, though.

Germantown wrote:That is good to know. However, as I have not yet purchased any AH Fox shotgun, wouldn't it be more fitting to wait until I actually have one, then join.

Didn't you post in May 2012 that you bought a Fox. Huhh?

http://foxcollectors.com/My%20Forum/php ... 130#p23130

Silvers wrote:

Germantown wrote:That is good to know. However, as I have not yet purchased any AH Fox shotgun, wouldn't it be more fitting to wait until I actually have one, then join.

Didn't you post in May 2012 that you bought a Fox. Huhh?

http://foxcollectors.com/My%20Forum/php ... 130#p23130

Correcto-- but as it had 7 lb. trigger pulls, and I didn't want to add another $200 to the purchase price to have them re-set by a good gunsmith, I sold it at my cost to another private party. It was a Philadelphia 12 Sterlingworth- nice wood pattern, good colors on the receiver, fine No. 2 weight stamped barrels, and it fit me like a porkpie hat on a carnival barker- I like the Sterlingworth design very much, way more graceful receiver lines than the Parker Trojan- but now I have the funds to buy a graded 12 Fox, and I want to make sure I "get it right"-- Once I have done so, I will re-consider the membership, the annual fee is priced right, of that there can be no doubt. Also, as you have the same keen eye for details as I like to think I have, you may have also noticed I left out the "b" in Buck Hamblin's surname- I spelled it "Hamlin" which is not correct. A fine man indeed and a master gunsmith on L.C. Smith and Uncle Dan LeFevers.

I have also noted some many similarities in writing style with another fellow. Am I correct that your given name is Francis, same as mine?

Silvers

Silvers wrote:I have also noted some many similarities in writing style with another fellow. Am I correct that your given name is Francis, same as mine?

Silvers

You are again correct. Do you go by Frank, or Francis, if I may ask. If you are both observant and astute enough to know this about me, then you may also understand the underlying reason I am not exactly rushing to write a $30.00 check. I live in Western Central MI-- but I have two married sisters living in PA, and one living in MD. I am also going back to try to edit the post, to read- "As I do not, at present, own a AH Fox shotgun"- and I respect any man who has keen powers of observation and the memory to back that up. No offense taken.