new guy with questions

[BruceK]

Hello gentlemen,
I’m a new guy to the forum and soon be a member of the Fox Collector Association when i get my app completed, but I’ve been intrigued by Fox shotguns since I read M. Mac Intosh’s book several years ago.
Anyway, I live in an area without many quality gun stores around, so it was not until last week that I actually got to see and handle a Fox shotgun in person. Needless to say I’m enamored and am seriously considering making an offer for the piece. It is a 16 Ga. Sterlingworth with 30” barrels, serial number 353xxx, so it was made in 1917 if I’m not mistaken. Overall, the gun seems to be in pretty good shape – the action seems smooth and solid; the case colors are still there, but faded; the outside of the barrels still have blue on them, a bit faded and thin with a few tiny rust spots; the bores are clean, smooth and shiny; and wood is good with some dings and scratches that seem consistent with a 94 year old gun. The rib does have a small nick on it though, probably from some recent handling. Overall, I get the sense that in the early years of its life this gun was used regularly and was well cared for but was likely exiled to some descendant’s closet for the past half century or so, until it wound up on the consignment rack at my local gun shop.
Before I jump off the deep end, I have a bunch of questions:
1. Does the Fjestad “Blue Book of Gun Values” reasonably reflective of current market? The asking price is significantly higher that what the Blue Book suggests.
2. Are there details that I should look at more carefully?
3. What was the normal chamber length for 16 Ga. Guns of this vintage?
4. Can modern loads be fired in this gun, or would I need to use low pressure rounds like those made by RST?
If I do end up getting this gun, I’m sure I’ll have more questions but that’s all for now,
Happy hunting,
Bruce

[sjh333]

I also am a fairly new member to this forum and hopefully some others will chime in about your questions....But here are a few answers/questions, to get you started...First , I have never compared to Blue book, but by what the market bears...The price can be dependant on several factors , such as overall condition...any splits in the wood?....especially the wrist of the stock?...Do all the serial ## match?..Has gun been altered at all?ie;chokes,etc,is wood to metal fit good?Do barrels ring when thumped?....chamber depth for that period would normall be 2 1/2",,,Do Not use modern shells...IMHO....Go with RST , Polywad , New Era , etc(I didn't wait as long as I did for my first Fox for an accident)....even though this has been discussed in detail on this forum...Any "wiggle" in the action?...Lock up tight?

Good Luck....
Sam

[Silvers]

Bruce and Sam, welcome. It sounds like you're catching the Fox fever like so many of us here. Once you get your membership confirmed and access enabled, you'll find the Members Forum where some of the more serious Fox guys mainly tend to post.

It sounds like the gun Bruce is looking at is an extractor gun - ejector SW's command way more $. Also it seems that 26 and 30 inch SW's in 16 gauge command a premium over the far more common 28 inchers. Bird hunters seek the former (quick and dynamic), and long range shooters for the latter (longer sighting plane). With that said, a decent extractor 16 gauge 30 inch SW will probably go for about $1300. as a mean figure - here in the east - and in today's market. That mean is plus or minus hundreds of $ depending on some obvious and more subtle condition questions. Most Foxes and other vintage double guns will wiggle slightly when the gun is opened, forend off, barrels moved side to side. That is normal and it's because of machining tolerances on the fit of the barrel lump and its matching mill cut in the frame. Some are tighter than others and as a friend often say, it "machts nichts". However the Fox should be tight as a drum when barrels are closed, as confirmed by using a .002" steel feeler gauge to check for even the slightest hint of clearance between the barrels and the standing breech. Any clearance indicates wear on the barrel pivot, and the gun will have to be rejointed. Barrel condition is paramount, and you'll want to check for previous bulging & "repair", and for excess overboring that can result in thin and unsafe barrel walls. A book can be written on what to look for, and my best advice is to get the gun on loan and take it to a serious double gun guy for his evaluation to include bore, chamber. forcing cone and wall thickness measurements, function of the triggers, hammers and safety, barrel rib integrity, and on/off face condition. A good option for gun cosmetics is to get some quality macro pics of the gun and post on our w-site for pricing comments.

Regarding a price reference book; it's always good to check, but one man's perception of let's say 90% condition can be mucho different than someone else's.... particularly in an area where Foxes are scarce. Some of us (me included) are fortunate to live close to where the Philly and Utica factories were located thus we come across way more Foxes for reference, than say someone out west. Silvers

[BruceK]

Silvers, Sam,
Thanks for your insights and thoughts on this gun; collecting Foxes (and probably any vintage shotgun) seems to be one of those subjects that you can never learn enough as there is always something new coming to light.
Your comments and suggestions led me to do some more browsing around the open forums here and have expanded my learned a lot from some of the older posts as well. I'll try to get some photos of the gun and post them.
Regards,
Bruce