Would you buy this gun???

[Scott]

Check out this gun that is listed on a large auction site. It appears to be a nice "A" Grade 20 gauge, with Single trigger, Ejectors 30" barrels. But notice how AH Fox is obliterated on the sides of the gun. Also notice the serial number on the trigger gaurd just does not look right. It appears to be 203000. I sent for more pictures and the serial numbers are obliterated on all parts.
Any one missing a 20 Gauge "A" Grade???







This WAS a nice gun, Too Bad!

[Silvers]

Let me say up front I AM NOT A LAWYER. It is my understanding that removing or obliterating the serial number from the frame/receiver of a firearm is a violation of federal law, and while that may have been done many years ago by someone other than the seller, I don't know the legalities at this point in time. The serial number appears to have been re-engraved on the trigger guard tail which is of course not the frame of this Fox. I've heard of folks working with the ATF to assign another number to be restamped in the frame or receiver in certain cases. However even if that is legally possible the gun cited here is IMO out of the collector category. Another potential issue is explaining to the ATF how the gun was bought and transferred in its present state. All this is JUST MY OPINION - I am not a lawyer. Silvers

[scottm3310]

I would stay away from this one!!!! I work in Law Enforcement and here is a breakdown of the statute.


II. RECEIVING FIREARM WITH DEFACED SERIAL NUMBER
The defendant is charged with receiving a firearm with a defaced or
obliterated serial or identification number. Section 11C of chapter 269 of
our General Laws provides as follows:
“Whoever...
receives a firearm
with knowledge that its serial number or identification number
has been removed, defaced, altered, obliterated or
mutilated in any manner
shall be punished . . . .”
To prove the defendant guilty of this offense, the Commonwealth
must prove five things beyond reasonable doubt:
First: That the item in question was a firearm;
Second: That the defendant received the firearm;
Instruction 7.640 Page 6
DEFACED FIREARM SERIAL NUMBER 2009 Edition
Third: That the defendant knew that the item was a firearm;
Fourth: That the serial number or identification number on the
firearm was removed, defaced, altered, obliterated, or mutilated in some
manner; and
Fifth: That the defendant knew that the serial or identification number
had been removed, defaced, altered, obliterated, or mutilated in some
manner at the time when he (she) received it.
Our law provides that every firearm shall bear a serial number
permanently inscribed on a visible metal area of the firearm. You must
determine whether the Commonwealth has proven beyond a reasonable
doubt that a serial or identification number on the firearm at issue here had
been removed, defaced, altered, obliterated or mutilated. The
Commonwealth need not prove that every part of the number was
physically damaged. It must prove that some part of the number was
removed, defaced, altered, obliterated or mutilated or, to use other words,
damaged, scratched out, or destroyed.
Here the jury must be instructed on the definition of a “Firearm” as set forth in I above.
Page 7 Instruction 7.640
2009 Edition DEFACED FIREARM SERIAL NUMBER
To prove that the defendant “received” the firearm, the
Commonwealth must prove that he (she) knowingly took custody or control
of it. It is not necessary that the defendant personally possessed the
firearm, as long as it is proved that he (she) knowingly exerted control over
it in some way.
To establish that a firearm was under the defendant’s “control,” it is
not enough for the Commonwealth just to prove that the defendant was
present in the same place as the firearm. The Commonwealth must also
prove that the defendant knew that the firearm was there, and that the
defendant had both the power and intent to exercise control over the
firearm. It is not necessary for the Commonwealth to prove that the
defendant had exclusive control over the firearm.

[ASavageFox]

Scott,

Is that federal law or local law?

Personally I would stay away from it... does seem likely to be seized. On the other hand... if you were looking for a really great project gun, this would be a good one for a complete refurbishment as its quite a rare combination in my opinion, I would start with calling the BATF and see if they could provide any help as Silvers mentioned.

[scottm3310]

Asavage,

It's Federal law. That came out of the ATF manual. Its very sad to see a nice example like this destroyed.


Best, Matt

[Twice Barrel]

I wonder if by some chance that this is in fact a legal firearm since it was manufactured long before serial numbering of firearms became mandatory?

[scottm3310]

The only exemption I can think of would be if it was a gun that was originally manufactured without a serial number. But if that were the case for this gun we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The way the law reads it’s anything that is classified as a firearm. So as far as I know there is no exemption for the age of the gun. I hope this in some way helps.

By the way I hope everyone had a good Christmas!!

Best!

[Witty1]

This has red flags all over it besides the numbers. With internet sales I always look at the return policy, this gun had not return policy written in the description. Right there tells me buyer beware! Without a 3 day inspection I would not consider buying.

I saw the gun today and wondered if you guy’s we chatting about it, had no idea the numbers were altered. Just thought the side picture was a bad shot, but this is disturbing. What a shame! Be patient Foxes surface from time to time it’s like treasure hunting, the hunt is the fun part.

[ASavageFox]

as well, the seller has no feedback...

[eightbore]

Where would I go to look at this gun? By the way, a friend has a renumbered Colt 1911 with ATF papers. Apparently, getting an illegal gun back to legal again is not impossible.

[Scott]

I agree with ASavageFox this is a very desirable combination and if it were not altered I would bid on this gun.
Has any one checked 203000 in the records to see how that gun is configured?
I doubt that it is the original serial number of this gun.

[TOOL MAN]

....they have....and it does. See you in Cell Block-C.

TOOLMAN......Breaking BAD...........

[eightbore]

I'm not sending my money to the West Coast to a no feedback seller, but if Iived out there, I would deliver the money in person and go home with the gun. Have you checked out the other gun he is selling? Gun butchers aren't all from PA.

[bbman3]

I bet Abner has it pointed! Bobby

[Stan Hillis]

Interesting discussion about serial numbers being altered, etc. BATF takes that seriously. I know a fellow who owns a M21. It was bequeathed to him by his grandfather who worked for John Olin. My acquaintance had to send the gun to a gunsmith for something minor, which was taken care of. Some time later the men in black suits and ties showed up at his door and told him that he had a M21 with altered serial numbers in his possession, and to produce it forthwith. He did so and discovered that the gun has no serial numbers at all! He, not being a gun nut as such, never noticed that the gun had no numbers. But the gunsmith had, and reported it as he should have. After lengthy discussions about how he had acquired the gun it was determined that his grandfather had received a very special M21, one that had never been numbered. As near as all could figure, the gun had never been numbered by Winchester, was hand delivered to his grandfather by Mr. Olin, and remains unnumbered to this day. The black suits were eventually satisfied after their investigations and returned the gun to it's owner and he's never heard another word about it.