Engraving and barrel material change

[ASavageFox]

I have in my notes that early/ late engraving changed between 21061 and 21073 for 12gauge graded guns. A few questions associated with this change over...

Is this the same time that graded guns went from Krupp Steel to Chromox steel, at least in the barrels?

Was there any change at all in the C grade engraving at this time? I know, for the most part it did not change in overall scheme but that said, I know there have been unique differences to the C grade engraving over the years it was produced. Setters versu pointers, depth of engraving, etc.... were any of these changes associated with this time period?

Thanks

[Silvers]

Barrel material and C engraving were changed over a range of serial numbers, not something like a dozen guns in sequence. It's downright confusing to find a later numbered gun with early features, when you own or have seen an earlier numbered gun with later features. That's been explained by the workman reaching into a bin and often picking the last frame, etc. placed in the bin. Hardly FIFO.

Regarding C grade dogs, one of our members was soliciting pictures of C dogs a while back and as I recall he was going to do something like a photo collage with correlating serial numbers for our members. I don't remember seeing it, but I may have missed it. Silvers

[Researcher]

No. Krupp guns go way into second generation engraving. 21061 is the highest serial number early-style AE-Grade I've observed, but we've recorded Gough-style A-/AE-grades well down in the 20xxx range. Krupp barrels continue to appear on guns up to around 1920, and I've actually observed a gun roll-stamped Chromox on the top of the right barrel with vestages of the Krupp markings on the bottoms of the tubes under the forearm. LIFO is a "generally accepted accounting principal" just the same as FIFO. I've got a Fox-Sterlingworth Ejector Brush in the high 160xxx range with a trim Philadelphia-type top-lever and the right barrel roll-stamped STERLINGWORTH FLUID COMPRESSED STEEL, shipped February 13, 1938.

[ASavageFox]

I saw the article in the newletter with teh pics of C grade wood and some different engraving patterns. if someone is still looking for C grade pics, I would be happy to take pics of mine... one is a fiarly early 12 gauge... the other a late 16.

The reason that I ask this question is I called on a gun today (CE) with serial 21086 and had Chromox steel on right barel with the standard philly address on left.... this did not seem correct to me but I was not sure. Be interested to see if the barrels are marked Krupp on the bottom!! Any chance I can get a card check on that or do I need to start another post? Does this seem very early for Chromox barrels? Maybe back to the factory for new barrels while it was still Fox and not Savage??? Seller was not exactly Fox savvy so they may have missed any indications and I have not seen any pics. no weight marks on the barrels (at least not that the seller could find). They offered to weight them but I thought I would check the records here first and see about the chromox barrels issue...

[fox-admin]

I owned CE 21308 and it had second style engraving, Krupp barrels, and a comb shaped like the early pre-1913 guns. I own 23770 (1917) and it has Krupp barrels, the lowest Chromox gun I own is 24483(1918). Chromox on 21086 seems like a red flag to me. By the way 21086 is a A grade, you must have the serial number wrong.

[ASavageFox]

I owned CE 21308 and it had second style engraving, Krupp barrels, and a comb shaped like the early pre-1913 guns. I own 23770 (1917) and it has Krupp barrels, the lowest Chromox gun I own is 24483(1918). Chromox on 21086 seems like a red flag to me. By the way 21086 is a A grade, you must have the serial number wrong.

You are most cerrtainly corect... gun was 20186 not 21086

still way off for chromox steel barrels. I did verify that there was engraving on the barrels near the breech in the general shape of a triangle. I will see if I can get pics and verify a lot of this info. I really was not too terribly interested once they told me about the rest of the gun... stock was "redone" and its sounds recheckered... right barrel had ding that was visible on the inside... little case color only in very protected areas... but now it has peeked my interest so I will ask for pics.

I just realized this was not in the member section... I will move my request there...

[Researcher]

Here 65 to over a hundred years down the road, anything could have happened. There are guns with very late, obviously Chic Falls made barrels roll-stamped A.H. Fox Gun Co. Phila., Pa. that were fitted to guns in the 1970s by Mitzie. I have one. Too bad Mitzie didn't have decendants to carry on with the Ansley H. Fox doubles like the Delgregos with the Parker Bros. guns. Likewise there is a 16-gauge CE-Grade out there that has barrels marked A.H. Fox Gun Co., Phila., PA that use to be marked Savage Arms Corp., Utica, NY, USA when one of our member owned it!! Somebody thought it would be worth more if it was a Philly gun?!?

[birdawg]

[quote="Regarding C grade dogs, one of our members was soliciting pictures of C dogs a while back and as I recall he was going to do something like a photo collage with correlating serial numbers for our members. I don't remember seeing it, but I may have missed it. Silvers[/quote]

You must have missed it Frank.
The offer was made to clean it up and put it on the site but I didn't hear any interest.

http://www.jessleephotos.com/fox%20guns/index.htm

That is what I collected but I would be willing to add more to any info about the engravers.
Best Wishes
Jess

[Silvers]

Jess, I don't remember that but again I probably missed it. Thanks for posting the photo gallery, it is well organized and presented. I'm sure our members and users will appreciate looking at the range of dog poses and engraving styles. Silvers

[NJdblgun]

Birdawg, that is very nice! Thank-you for putting it together.

[birdawg]

If anyone has any unique or unusual or out of sequence dog photos I would be happy to add them.
When I get a chance I will work over the captions to make them easier to discern. Google thinks they are Croatian and want to translate them