Fox-Philadelphia Model

bamafan · Post by **bamafan** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:15 pm

Hello. First of all, let me introduce myself. My name is Chris, and I love collecting guns, any kind.
I've got a few Fox', a 12 and a 16, both Savage models.
I also have a Philadelphia model, s/n 3xx, patent date of August 1904. Just a little newer that the one shown on the home page. I think it's a grade A, not much engraving on it. All the numbers match, missing the stock though. I'm looking for a stock that will fit it, along with the safety slide. I might even need an internal part or two, don't know yet. The guy that had the gun did shoot low power shells through it, and seemed to function fine.
I have found a few plain stocks here and there, but I'm looking for one that is particular to this gun.
Or maybe a gunsmith/stockmaker that could help me with this.

Thanks

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:56 pm

The likelihood of finding a usable original Philadelphia Arms Co. Fox stock brings to mind the terms "slim" and "none." With only about 2000 of these guns made, over 104 years ago, any usable stock is still attached to its gun, and the rest are suitable for kindling.

Having a new stock made is pretty much the only answer.

james-l · Post by **james-l** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:10 pm

Chris, if you are really interested in restocking your PAC Fox, I have a Pattern Stock that came off mine (#1xxx). You are welcome to use it to have a stock machined for yours, it is sufficiently high and long enough for custom fitting. I also have a forend for same purpose. Contact me if you are interested, my email is in my profile.

Jim

bamafan · Post by **bamafan** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:27 pm

Jim, I sent you a personal message. You don't have an email in your profile.

bamafan · Post by **bamafan** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:21 pm

I'm trying to figure what grade gun I have here. There is no letters stamped on the gun anywhere. Would that mean it's an A grade gun?
If so, as far as the stock and forearm is concerned, would they have been checkered?

james-l · Post by **james-l** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:49 pm

A couple of years ago I bought an A grade PAC Fox , #1020 that had great metal with original finish; the wood had been hacked up by a trap shooter. I am in the process of restoring the stock and forend with new wood. I was taking some photos for Chris to give him an idea of the safety mechanism which he needs for his gun. I realized that the safety on #1020 is different than the one on #59 which I owned several years ago. Gun #59 has a safety very similar to the A H Fox, whereas #1020 has a link between the triggers and the safety spring, anyone else ran into this? Photos below, I just happened to have a old photo of #59s triggers, also check out the case color on #1020.

PAC Fox #1020 safety

PAC Fox #59 triggers on left

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:38 am

They show cut-aways of the cocking mechanism and of the bolting mechanism in the 1905 Philadelphia Arms Co. catalogue but not the triggers and safety. Some years ago I picked up the complete forearm and most of the internals for 1530. It has triggers and the intermediate piece like you show on 1020. Ansley's original gun in Baltimore had the tall trigger blades acted on directly by the safety.

Mike Krol · Post by **Mike Krol** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:57 am

As luck would have it, I have an original minty pistol grip stock and splinter fore-end from a 1930 A Grade Fox. I've been meaning to advertise it here in the Fox parts section, just haven't gotten around to doing so. Price is $150 for both, and that's a firm price. Email me if you're interested: ohgunrunner@yahoo.com.

Mike

bamafan · Post by **bamafan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:55 am

I don't know what kind of trigger assembly I have in my Fox. Haven't taken it apart yet. I've found a gunsmith and awaiting his call back. He's supposed to be pretty good. Gonna look at some of his previous work.

Dave, I seen a reference that you keep up with the early PAC guns. The one I have is #360. Do you have any info on this one? If not, feel free to add this to your database. Has what I think is the original forend. No checkering. No stock. Busted off right behind the safety. Missing safety slide and possibly a few safety components. All the numbers match though. Blueing good throughout.

I guess I'll have to take the stock off to see what kind of safety assembly I have so I can find those parts.

Mike, I appreciate the offer, but Jim has helped me with a new stock and forend. Maybe someone else can benefit from this.

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:23 pm

Don't have serial number 360 on my list. Is it a 30-inch Krupp barrel A-Grade? Full pistol grip?

bamafan · Post by **bamafan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:11 pm

Dave, barrel length is 28 1/2 inches. I do not see anything denoting Krupp barrels. How do I tell which it has? As far as what grade, I do not see any stamping A,B,C etc. Not alot of engraving either. I am assuming it is an A grade. As far as the grip, the stock is busted off right behind the safety, and I do not have it.

james-l · Post by **james-l** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:21 pm

Mike , too bad that I don,t need a later stock, unfortunately yours won't work on a PAC Fox

Jim

bamafan · Post by **bamafan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:27 pm

The trigger assmebly in mine is like the one in the 56 Jim. I'm gonna need the whole safety assembly. Anyone know where I can get this?

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:38 pm

Normally (?) the grade stamp is just above the serial number on the right watertable and the bottom of the barrel lug. I've had reports of several, apparently A-grades, without a grade stamp. Normally the barrels steel is shown on the legend on the top rib and often there are vestages of the Krupp markings on the bottom of the barrel tubes just ahead of the flats.

Barrels were catalogued with even lengths 28-, 30-, and 32-inch. Measuring the chokes with a bore mic should tell if your barrels have been whacked or not. Likewise, the A-Grade was only catalogued with a capped full pistol grip, but I've recorded one A-Grade (# 416) with a straight grip and a long trigger guard backstrap that certainly appeared original in its overall brown condition. It made many appearances at the York, PA., gunshow in the mid-1990s with an asking price of $1500!!!

bamafan · Post by **bamafan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:21 pm

Dave, the barrels are in fact Krupp barrels. No stamping anywhere regarding which grade it is.
Measured the barrels again, and there are 28 1/2 inches, from tip to end where the end of the shotgun shell (brass) would be. No mic gauge to check the chokes. I'll have to let a smith look at that for me. I looked at the end of the barrels looking for any "cut" marks, and I don't see any. No file marks of any sort either. Front bead is 2 1/4 inches from the front, if that helps any.