sub ga chamber

44whiskey · Post by **44whiskey** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:14 pm

several months back i was reading article on Cyril Adams, he was early proponent of zz birds and competed worldwide in pigeon shoots. he was fond of long barrel british hammer guns.one article stated he would re chamber some of these shotguns one ga smaller than bore as in 16 ga chamber in 12 ga, or 20 ga chamber in 16 gal, the author of the article had one of these altered shotguns and refered to it as his high pheasant slayer. i had never heard of this before and assumed it was an experiment that had not proven its worth and had faded into obscurity.last night i was on Brileys website and they offer this mod listed along with all other manner of barrel work.do any of you fellas have any experience with or knowledge of this mod or know of any benefit.thanks in advance,Fred

ps has anyone read Lock,Stock,and Barrel,{authored by Cyril Adams} it had mixed reviews,if you have read it would you recommend it? again thanks

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:06 am

Although Cyril shot Damascus guns regularly, I think he felt that you could shoot a heavier load out of a larger chambered gun safely. Just my opinion. I think the pressure drop out of a smaller chamber is pretty severe. I think that is the Brileyspeak.

44whiskey · Post by **44whiskey** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:27 am

thank you Eightbore for the reply,so are you saying someone having that mod done would be trying to reduce felt recoil? regards Fred

Stan Hillis · Post by **Stan Hillis** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:08 pm

Cyril and I talked several times, some years ago, about my search for a true English pigeon gun with hammers, and the things that made them a pigeon gun as opposed to a waterfowler. During those conversation he mentioned what you are asking about and, AIR, it was exactly for the reason eightbore posed. The smaller chamber emptying into the larger bore eliminated much of the shot damage that occurs in a forcing cone, and also created a pressure drop in a critical area of the bore, which is just in front of the cones, because of the greater volume of the larger bore..

I have his wonderful book on the history of trap pigeon shooting. I will try to remember to look through it tonight and see if he references this in any of the chapters on the guns themselves.

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:47 pm

Sounds like the same theory as the late Stan Baker's "Big Bore" barrels for trap shooters that was essentially a 12-gauge chamber all the way to the choke.

44whiskey · Post by **44whiskey** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:32 pm

[quote="Stan Hillis" post_id=73035 time=1663438125 user_id=5

I have his wonderful book on the history of trap pigeon shooting. I will try to remember to look through it tonight and see if he references this in any of the chapters on the guns themselves.
[/quote]
thanks for reply Stan,is that book titled Lock, Stock, and Barrel? ps are you seeing good numbers of dove ? regards Fred

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:13 pm

The book referenced is not Lock Stock and Barrel. It is a book Cyril wrote specifically about Pigeon shooting and its variations. The title is "Live Pigeon Trap Shooting". Buy it while you can. It is the classic on the Pigeon Shooting sport.

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:18 pm

44Whiskey, not so much to reduce recoil, but to reduce breech pressure in Damascus chambers so that heavy loads can be safely fired in Damascus barrels. Stan, Cyril and I talked years ago about him selling me his 34" hammer pigeon gun. He would not sell it to me, but soon after, I found a very late high condition 2 3/4" chamber heavy proof Whitworth steel Purdey hammer Pigeon gun in a dark corner of a local gun store. My search was and is over.

44whiskey · Post by **44whiskey** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:48 pm

thank you Eightbore for clarifying that it was reducing chamber pressure as opposed to reducing recoil. i know i have difficulty posting photos sometimes but i would love to see the Purdy sometime. in the few photos of Cyril i have seen one was with a 34 inch hammer gun.the term svelt i think would apply to it as well as others he was photographed with. regards Fred ps thanks for book title

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:34 am

Cyril Adams' arrangement, financial and otherwise, resulted in the manufacture of his 34" hammer pigeon gun, I think adorned with the Grant name.

44whiskey · Post by **44whiskey** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:23 am

Eightbore, thanks for that post,is that the gun referred to as Supergun? the article stated he acquired Grant Atkins and Lang as they were dormant . as i live just north of houston, i wish i could have met the man. regards Fred

Woody · Post by **Woody** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:43 pm

eightbore wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:13 pm The book referenced is not Lock Stock and Barrel. It is a book Cyril wrote specifically about Pigeon shooting and its variations. The title is "Live Pigeon Trap Shooting". Buy it while you can. It is the classic on the Pigeon Shooting sport.

I have the Live Pigeon and Trap Shooting book. Great book. Makes me really want to shoot live pigeons.

Stan Hillis · Post by **Stan Hillis** » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:39 am

Sorry Fred, I failed to answer your question but no, it is a different book. As I recall it is the last book he had published, and IMO it is a masterpiece of the history and practice of live pigeon shooting in competitions. It was not an inexpensive book when he shipped it to me, signed. But, the chapter on ammunition and loads used over the years in live bird competitions is worth the cost of the entire book. The rest of it is gravy.

Bill, Cyril and I talked about the aspects of a true English pigeon gun over the phone a couple times and he eventually offered me one of his personal guns. I cannot recall all the details on the gun now, but the price was around $12K, and was just more than I wanted to put into a pigeon gun at that time. In retrospect, I may have made a bad decision. But, it is what it is.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:53 am

I've been following this thread thinking I might learn something on patterning/performance with what seems to be a grossly overbore concept. What is said about the diverging cone (opposite of a forcing cone) going from a 16 chamber to a 12 bore caliber? Was he using felt or modern polymer wads? Also, did this Cyril fellow offer up any empirical data supporting his 16 chamber/12 bore caliber concept, i.e., patterning efficiencies by pellet count at different yardages? Hopefully Cyril had objective data to support his concept but if not the old saying comes to mind "all that glitters is not gold". frank

44whiskey · Post by **44whiskey** » Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:05 am

Frank, Stan states there is a chapter in Cyrils book on ammo and loads,perhaps some of the answers to yours and my questions are contained there.I do not have the book yet but hope to in the near future. In regards to whether Cyril collected data on pattern performance i do not know,but being he was an Engineer who designed refrigeration plants for the petro/chem industry, i would expect it would be in his nature to do so. Also from the info i found on line about Stan Bakers big bore barrels that Researcher mentioned,it is the same theory to a lesser degree that relied on polywad sealing thru obturation.Report stated this worked until a low ambient temp threshold was reached and seal failed.regards Fred

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sub ga chamber

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