Fox Collectors

Silvers wrote:1/2 and 3/4 ounce loadings in 12-gauge must get the "square load" gents into fits and howling at the moon.

frank

So that's what I've been hearing. I thought it was the local coyotes doing their mating calls. (There's supposed to be a smiley face here!)

I apologize to them and others who think those light loads are nonsense.

Jolly

Actually apologies might be due to the fist poster who asked about reloading 2-1/2" RST hulls and then the thread quickly got on a tangent re: 3/4-ounce and 1/2 ounce loads in 12-gauge RST's, and first off one poster kind of advocated them for game and without reservation. 3/4 ounce is the 28-gauge "square load" and It surely came across in my postings that I'm not a fan of the 28-gauge with 3/4 ounce loads for hunting anything but smaller game at close to moderate ranges. In my mind it's kind of like a 3-inch 410. Beyond "fun" clays shooting those very light loads are quite limited, and I've seen too many animals wounded by fellas who try to stretch things to come across as a sportsman. I'm so happy A H Fox both Philly and Utica never saw a need for a 28 or a 410 for that matter. Anyway as I'd written, the 1/2 and 3/4 ounce loads in 12-gauge will work for fun clays shooting if that's your interest and you have the mettle to take some ribbing when shooting with those using traditional clays loads. Again, ime those ultra light 12-gauge loads should be limited to hunting smaller game animals BY A GOOD SHOOTER and at close to moderate ranges. Maybe the hunter should think s/he's fielding a 3-inch 410 and use that 12-bore accordingly.

Back to the full scope of the first poster's question - who has proven loads for 2-1/2" RST hulls and with heavier shot charges?

frank

Your post is right on Frank. No need to apologize to me Bill, I am a huge fan of the light load. You gave me a box of your 1/2oz., 12ga. loads at Ernie's, I shot them at 5 stand and the only thing I noticed was the lack of recoil. I normally load 12,16,20 and 28ga. with 3/4oz. loads and they work for me. Like Frank said use enough velocity, payload, and most importantly enough choke, to humanely harvest your quarry. As my good friend Clint said "A man's got to know his limitations".

Bill and Woody and perhaps others in western NY reading this thread, I see that Rochester Brooks has a 100 bird sporting clays shoot on March 9. If you don't compete as a NSCA member, R-B (an excellent club btw) offers a "Hunters Class" for fun shooters using whatever they brought as long as the load doesn't exceed NSCA shot limitations such as #7.5 to 9 shot, 1-1/8 ounce max, etc. Might be a good opportunity to see what ultra light 12-gauge loads can do against regular loads on the same course and conditions, same presentations, etc.

frank

Silvers wrote:Bill and Woody and perhaps others in western NY reading this thread, I see that Rochester Brooks has a 100 bird sporting clays shoot on Sunday, March 9. If you don't compete as a NSCA member, R-B (an excellent club btw) offers a "Hunters Class" for fun shooters using whatever they brought as long as the load doesn't exceed NSCA shot limitations such as #7.5 to 9 shot, 1-1/8 ounce max, etc. Might be a good opportunity to see what ultra light 12-gauge loads can do against regular loads on the same course and conditions, same presentations, etc.

frank

Continuing this very enjoyable discussion. The only thing that might make it better is if we were all sitting around a wood stove with some sippin' whiskey, a cold beer or a cup of coffee and engaging the merits of shooting.

Couple points I would like to add:
1. I know some of the local upstate NY shooters will be at Brooks this Sunday, including our honorable ad-min Craig Larter and his duck hunting cohorts. I've shot Brooks a few times with them including the small bore course. Every target on that course can be broken with 1/2 ounce loads shot out of a 20, 28, .410 or a 12.

2. I'm sure many of us Noreaster's who have attended Ernie's side by shoot in June have noticed how well Daryl has done using his 20 gauge on Boo Whoop. With his 20, has bested most of the 12 gauge shooters and ends up near the best score. Daryl, you sure do know how to shoot your 20. Atta Boy Daryl.

3. I think most lost game from shooting has more to do with head space. Not the kind in the gun but the shooters head and hence, judgement. I wouldn't be surprised that more total game is lost using heavier loads, either from a shotgun or a rifle. Because that's what primarily would be used. Far enough out the shooter may not see that subtle response from the quarry to see if it was hit.
On the other hand, and more likely hunting grouse in typical grouse cover where you're shooting is close, lighter loads can be very effective and you may see that visual response from a hit bird. And I would say, that a direct hit from that same close shot with typical hunting loads: 1, 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounce, the bird is so shot up that it might end up being thrown away.
So just because you have heavier loads does not guarantee loss of game.
Shooter judgement is the key. Not the load in my opinion.

4. Back to the original posters question about loads for his 12 gauge 2 1/2" RST hulls, the recipe that Woody posted for 3/4 ounce loads is documented. The insert that comes with the Claybuster CB-0175-12 wads for 3/4 ounce has one for Federal hulls which are quite similar to the straight walled hulls in RST's. Likely on the CB web site also.
14.5 grains of Alliant Extra Lite powder and a Federal 209A primer will yield 1200 fps at 6100 psi. And 15.0 grains will get you 1250 fps and 6600 psi and 16.0 grains will get you 1300 fps at 7000 psi. That's using the CB 0175-12 wad. The CB 6100 wad that Woody specifies is for a straight walled hull and may change the results, up or down, but probably not much.

Please pour me another cup of coffee please. And yes, I'll have another donut.

Speaking of donuts, all donuts are good. Just some better than others. Actually, a lot like sex. Have you ever had a bad one?

Respectfully with no mal intent.

Jolly

I load 3/4 oz 12ga for all my target shooting, they work for me and if I drop a few extra clays the reduced recoil more than offsets. For ducks I use the best non toxic max load available either 1 1/4 oz or 1 3/8oz. As much as I don't mind dropping a target I hate losing a duck.

Thanks gents, yes a good subject for sitting around the wood stove, sippin something and yarning. Speaking of coffee I must not have enough this morning and had written the R-B shoot is on Sunday March 9. Actually March 9 is Saturday. I edited my earlier post accordingly.

Speaking of grouse hunting - here in the northern PA at least - I'd say the average shot in typical cover has gotten much longer over the last few decades. I have my opinions why that is; but in any case I see the days of grouse being relatively abundant, holding well for good dogs, and affording the classic close-in shooting we read about in older sporting books, are largely gone. Yep we all might get a Red Letter Day now and then but in net, grouse are more scarce, more spooky and the typical shot is much farther out. Not to kick the horse again, but let's consider the average sport who hunts all day with maybe a "sound flush" or two, then he gets a 40 yard wild flush, sees the bird and he's carrying a shotgun loaded with 3/4 ouncers …. will he hold back from popping off a shot at the King of the Woods? Not many have that restraint. Methinks if you're carrying a 12-gauge it's better to have a 1-1/4 ounce “high brass” shell on ready in the left barrel than something much lighter.

frank

First and foremost I wish I could make the shoot this week at the RB club. I'd even bring the doughnuts and sipping whiskey.
Thanks for the compliment Bill but for some reason that little 20ga. Sterly just loves the 3/4oz. loads I feed her.
(Frank named her Fintress or Finny as I call her). As Frank or Mikey the Mountain can attest, good shooting whether on birds or clays boils down to shooting a boatload of targets. I don't condone shooting light loads on live birds if you are not proficient with your scattergun. But, light loads with tight chokes (3/4oz @ 1225fps.) works for me and above all it's fun. If it was'nt fun I would'nt do it.

As far as the sex vs. doughnuts Bill, I'll take the sex... less calories and I feel much better after I'm done with less guilt.

Sorry if this got sidetracked. I simple posted a good 3/4 oz load that i use on clays and it snowballed from there to I’m advocating the 1/2 oz load as the best game load out there. Lol. So to answer the original poster. The load I posted that came from one of our more respected memebers is a great light low pressure load in the 12 RST hull. Also as a 7/8 oz load if you want a little more shot.

Interesting discussion. I am a big fan of the 3" .410 load, and use it a lot shooting doves and quail. Winchester has an excellent 3/4 oz. loading, and I load my own as well. The 3/4 oz. load in the .410 is more than adequate to cleanly dispatch doves and quail. Even the lowly 1/2 oz. .410 load is entirely adequate for doves as long as the shooter uses restraint with the range. I have taken many limits with a .410. It is often said that the .410's use on game birds should be restricted to use by "experts". Here's what constitutes an expert with the .410, IMO ............ someone who shows restraint in how far he attempts a shot. If velocity is about equal, density kills. Density can be completely adequate with light loads, but the range has to be restricted for that to be. Will power, then, is the key .......... not how much shot is in the load, within reason, of course.

SRH

Hey guys!! All one really needs is the 3/8 ounce of shot that the 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shell carried from its 1914 introduction in North America until it got upped to the 1/2 ounce we know now, a few years after the 3-inch .410-bore shell came out.
Norman V. Pillot won the International Flyer Championship at Kansas City in 1931.

I reload a 3/4 oz #4 buckshot payload (15 pellets) for my 1920's Sterlingworth 12ga using cowboy data (Accurate Nitro 100) for both barrel sides (left full, right modified) and bust clays really well and game birds come down with minimum damage. Had many a good meals from the hunts. Not sure if it's the wads I use, or the shot card I place on top of the pellets that keep the payload tight for the distance shooting before it spreads out. Really mild on that old Fox and can shoot it all day. Hardest part is to find a local for Nitro 100 without having to pay the hazmat shipping fee. I can get Unique anywhere and have a lot on hand, but having a hard time finding reloading data to convert to the N100 specs.

DarylC wrote:
As far as the sex vs. doughnuts Bill, I'll take the sex... less calories and I feel much better after I'm done with less guilt.

And here I thought you were going to choose doughnuts because they last longer!!!!