Original case colors

birdawg · Post by **birdawg** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:27 am

In another thread the true "look" of original case color has come up again and I must admitt I am un clear on the true look of our Fox guns.

I would like to see examples of original color but I would guess all that are available have changed with time. Maybe I am wrong.

It might be worth using a current, for sale and restored, gun as a object not of critisum but of study as to the look of factory color.

http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/AmericanPage13.htm
is an example for your consideration if you will.

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:42 am

Getting good pictures that reproduce case colors accurately is pretty tough.

Having seen and handled several early high condition A- and B-Grades I can say that aint it!! Way too much straw color. Pop Headrick use to refer to early Fox case colors as firey. Certainly not those frosty colors from that outfit in Ohio!

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:45 am

Birdawg, you are very correct in your assumption that it is hard to find a picture of a gun that illustrates what original early Fox case colors look like. There do not seem to be any such pictures on our website. The linked gun does not exhibit such original colors either. Some of our members have posted pictures of good original early colors on our forum, but I can't give any examples of posts to look at. Some of the HE grade guns that have been pictured lately have colors that are very similar to the transparent "early A Grade" colors that I alluded to on the other thread. I don't know why those same colors are not usually evident on Sterlingworth guns of the same era. Sterlingworth colors of the early twenties are vivid, but do not exhibit the transparent characteristics of HE Grade colors of the same era or the early A Grade colors that look very much like those HE Grade colors. Could it be the difference in the steel between the HE and Sterlingworth receivers? Sterlingworths of the early 20s certainly don't take on the appearance of the same era of HE guns when the colors wear off. It is obvious that the steel is different. OK, Birdawg, here is my contribution to the case color discussion. I will continue to post as long as we can get some replies.

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:54 am

OK, we have "fiery", "transparent", "not frosty". I agree with all three for early Fox colors. Fox A and B Grades in the first generation engraving pattern and most high condition HE Grade guns exhibit the colors we are attempting to describe. Maybe someone will post pictures of guns that exhibit these characteristics.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:51 pm

We just had this conversation at the Fox table while at the NE SxS shoot. I don't remember who used the terminology, it may have been Paul or Mike, but the best descriptor I've heard of the very early Fox case colors is "like oil sheen on water". Frank

1906 A grade, all original

birdawg · Post by **birdawg** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:05 pm

That is a good description for what we see today and a nice example.
I wonder what a 100 years give or take a few does to the color?

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:41 pm

Age and exposure apparently don't do much to harm them since most all high condition examples look the same regardless of how and where they were stored.

FOXIST · Post by **FOXIST** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:31 pm

IMHO I think it is a combination of the early coloring process plus the amount of polishing that was done to the steel. If you look at an early A or B grade High condition gun you can see your reflection thru the case colors showing just how much polishing these early guns must have had. I bet they were almost "mirror like" before they were hardened.
When we discussed this last weekend it was Mike that came of with the oil on water description and I feel he is Spot On with it. Notice also the near true "Black" of the trigger guard finish on Silvers early A. Below are a couple pics of my #17607 for comparison. Frank do you have a pic of the side of your A? that sure is one Sweeeet!!! Gun.

Eightbore
I have seen a few early pin Sterlingworths that have these same type of colors. Could it be that these early actions were Krupp steel? and later they were made of Chromox?What do you guys think? Foxadmin and I have disussed this often and feel the hardness of the steel must have drove the guys in the color department crazy trying to come up with a uniform color. Just when the switch from Bone Charcoal to a Cyanide type case is another thing hard to determine.

birdawg
The case colors on Fox guns seem to change over various periods and to say that any certain color is correct would be misleading. I think once you look at these guns over the years you begin to get an idea of what type colors you should see over the various periods.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:29 pm

Paul, I don't have any pics of the frame sides on that early A grade, and our camera is currently out of town. I'll get some pics when it returns. Frank

jolly bill · Post by **jolly bill** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:11 am

Silvers 1906 early A shown above and personally had the opportunity to see in the flesh at the NE Classic is one gorgeous gun.

Here's a couple more early one's to add for case color comparison: early C12#1065X, early BE12#1593X and early A12#1982X.

Post by **fox-admin** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:23 am

From my observations there are three distinct types of case colors on Fox guns. The early type bone charcoal colors are illustrated above. The second type is seen on guns from the 1916-1918 period and have more light straw color than vivid blue. Doug Turnbull told me the more straw color the harder the surface. These guns exhibit very subdued blue. My theory is these guns are charcoal blued using a chromox frame and they hardened differently than the earlier non-chromox frames. The last group is the cyanide colored chromox frames that have a dark blue appearance. Just my opinion.

Twice Barrel · Post by **Twice Barrel** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:02 pm

As handsome as these guns are it is hard to get a true appreciation of the colors with the glare from the lighting. Dose anyone have a cure that will eliminate the glare when doing close up photography of fine firearms?

birdawg · Post by **birdawg** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:23 pm

Even lighting is the key. Easy to say tougher to do.
Maybe the simplest solution is open shade outside (as in under a tree or even in the garage with the door open and no direct light on the gun).
A better solution is inside with controlled lighting and a polarizing filter.
Flash or lamps with reflectors and soft boxes is the real way but usually beyond the scope of the casual photographers tools.

lee r moege · Post by **lee r moege** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:36 am

I have been watching this thread with some intrest as I have a 1912 A, and a 1921 AE. The earlier is Krupp, the later Chromox. I spent 40 years in manufacturing and tooling and here are some of my observations on case hardening. Doug is basically right about the harder the steel the more straw will emerge when colored. The word should be" tougher" as even in those early days not everything was as simple as carbon #1020 or #1080 steel. There were various additions of chrome, vanadium, nickel,molybdenum, and other agents to give hardness, toughness, and elongation[burst strength in case of a gun barrel]. According to McIntosh the case hardening process was changed from bone charcoal to cyanide if I remember, about the time they went to Chromox. Since that has chrome and vanadium it will not give the same "color" type when cased. He also says the frames and barrels were chromox, with a few frames that were not early in the switch due to inventory. This was further indicated by his statement a Krupp or other frame will go gray, where a chromox frame will turn silver. The other consideration in the " Jacobs Coat" coloring as we called it, was that not only was it hardened in pulverized bone, but with charred leather as well. Even varying the type of bone, ie. cow, hog , would alter the colors. If anybody has used Kasenit in a box packed furnace, you will see it coming out a blue/gray translucent color the depth of which is directly related to the pre-polish. The purpose of case hardening was to put a thin tough skin on a softer steel to enable it to withstand firing without damage, by the infusion of additional carbon. Thus the parts could be made of more easily machined soft steel by the machines available in those days, or by hand filing. If one looks closely or knew where to look you might find a prick punch or file mark some inspector used to see if the hardening was satisfactory. In the humble opinion of this old geezer I don't think you can ever say this is what the charcoal or cyanide hardening colors looked like on guns made from this date to this, etc. as this was a process almost like alchemy at best, and was not a controlable thing such as a polish and hot blue on a modern gun. I am just happy if my old girls show some strong color that's original, although I suppose you could have whatever you want air-brushed on like the colors on Parker Repro's if color is the only criteria. Whew! Lee.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:35 pm

I've studied this subject quite a bit over the past couple of years, and concluded that while the chemistry of the pack hardening process is quite simple, there was (and is) a bit of alchemy involved in getting the "right" colors. Lee is correct to use the word alchemy.

It seems the creation of good colors was a closely guarded secret, with additional trace salts of strontium, copper, etc. reportedly used in the pack. I've even read old time references stating that urine may have been used in the quench to create or enhance certain colors.

Reminds me when as a teenager I was making my own gunpowder for homemade muzzleloaders and read an old reference that a wine drinker's urine might be used to wet the black powder ingredients in the milling process, to create "extra strong" powder. All I had available then was beer (3 quarts of Valley Forge for $1.00) so I couldn't try it. Come to think of it the powder we made was pretty good anyway!

Frank