Hi all,
Happy Memorial Day. I'm looking at purchasing an A grade Fox Serial #77XX. From what I can find it's a mid '08 to early'09. Choked mod. / full with 28" Krupp barrels. Now the barrels ring like chimes, and it sounds like a bank vault when it closes. The fellow has it listed at 20% in the blue book. He tells me that the previous owner didn't take real good care of it. No dings , dents, or pitting. Unfortunatly I have only three days to inspect it when I get it and decide if I want it. What should I look for when I get it? I'm going to scrub the barrels when I recieve it to make sure there is no interior pitting. Also he tells me there is a chip out if the forearm. Any help is appreciated.
Tim
What to look for??
Tim,
Checking the barrels will require a wall thickness gauge, a bore gauge, and a chamber gauge. If you don't have these, find someone who does. If you don't have the proper tools to measure the barrels you will only be guessing at their condition. Check for minimum wall thickness (.020" nine inches or so from the muzzle). Check bore size. Standard 12g is .729" If they are more than .010" larger, you really need to be particular when checking for thin walls. Finished bore sizes varied quite a lot a hundred years ago so you will never know what the bore was when it left the factory. However, a gun with big bores probably got them from one or more hone jobs to remove pits. Visually check for pits both on the outside and inside of the barrels. Check for chamber length with a chamber gauge. A lot of short (2 1/2" or 2 5/8") chambers have been lengthened to 2 3/4 or even 3". This can be OK or it can weaken a set of barrels terribly. You need a minimum of .100" at the end of the chamber. Less and you risk a failure at the breech end, where pressure is highest. A barrel failure at the breech end can really hurt. Make sure the barrels ring so you won't be relaying ribs. Lastly, snap the gun together with out the forend and check for any off-face condition by pushing the barrels back and forth, up and down looking for any movement between the barrels and the standing breech. Keep in mind that the heart of a double gun is its barrels and virtually any barrel work is expensive.
Triggers should feel light and crisp with no slack or creep and the safe should work. Check the stock for looseness on the frame as well as cracks. If the action moves in its wood there will probably be more unwelcome surprises inside. Tell-tale signs of past abuse: screw slots buggered and out of time; dents and dings in the wood; replacement screws that don't quite fit; "stock repairs" of the screw, nail and bolt variety; generally beat up look.
A 20% gun that hasn't been taken care of should have more than a chip out of the forend. If the seller is already making excuses for the gun, measure very carefully.
Cheers, Pete
Checking the barrels will require a wall thickness gauge, a bore gauge, and a chamber gauge. If you don't have these, find someone who does. If you don't have the proper tools to measure the barrels you will only be guessing at their condition. Check for minimum wall thickness (.020" nine inches or so from the muzzle). Check bore size. Standard 12g is .729" If they are more than .010" larger, you really need to be particular when checking for thin walls. Finished bore sizes varied quite a lot a hundred years ago so you will never know what the bore was when it left the factory. However, a gun with big bores probably got them from one or more hone jobs to remove pits. Visually check for pits both on the outside and inside of the barrels. Check for chamber length with a chamber gauge. A lot of short (2 1/2" or 2 5/8") chambers have been lengthened to 2 3/4 or even 3". This can be OK or it can weaken a set of barrels terribly. You need a minimum of .100" at the end of the chamber. Less and you risk a failure at the breech end, where pressure is highest. A barrel failure at the breech end can really hurt. Make sure the barrels ring so you won't be relaying ribs. Lastly, snap the gun together with out the forend and check for any off-face condition by pushing the barrels back and forth, up and down looking for any movement between the barrels and the standing breech. Keep in mind that the heart of a double gun is its barrels and virtually any barrel work is expensive.
Triggers should feel light and crisp with no slack or creep and the safe should work. Check the stock for looseness on the frame as well as cracks. If the action moves in its wood there will probably be more unwelcome surprises inside. Tell-tale signs of past abuse: screw slots buggered and out of time; dents and dings in the wood; replacement screws that don't quite fit; "stock repairs" of the screw, nail and bolt variety; generally beat up look.
A 20% gun that hasn't been taken care of should have more than a chip out of the forend. If the seller is already making excuses for the gun, measure very carefully.
Cheers, Pete
DoubleGun Cases
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Gretagrouse
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What to look for 2
Hi Pete,
Thanks for the reply. I've been wondering what else is wrong with it myself. I told my wife you don't find an A grade for starting under $1,000. The fellow told me the trigger guard is scarred up to, but says there are no dings, dents or pitting on the outside. So I guess I'll see for myself when it gets here. I'll have to find someone that has the gauges. Also I'm looking at a 12ga. Sterlingworth with skt/ Ic tubes. The man told me they measured the tubes and believe them to be original. However there is a dent in the right barrel. I'm waiting for a response on how bad the dent is . They are asking $800 for it. Also waiting to hear if it is a matching numbers gun. Thanks again for the help.
Tim
Thanks for the reply. I've been wondering what else is wrong with it myself. I told my wife you don't find an A grade for starting under $1,000. The fellow told me the trigger guard is scarred up to, but says there are no dings, dents or pitting on the outside. So I guess I'll see for myself when it gets here. I'll have to find someone that has the gauges. Also I'm looking at a 12ga. Sterlingworth with skt/ Ic tubes. The man told me they measured the tubes and believe them to be original. However there is a dent in the right barrel. I'm waiting for a response on how bad the dent is . They are asking $800 for it. Also waiting to hear if it is a matching numbers gun. Thanks again for the help.
Tim
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Gretagrouse
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what to look for??
Pete,
on the description of the gun it also says chamber and proof 2 3/4", tired but sound.
on the description of the gun it also says chamber and proof 2 3/4", tired but sound.
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Silvers
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Tim, the rundown by Pete is very complete. Some further comments on barrels.... your seller stated no dings or dents. I hope that is the case. I've bought guns before with the same advertising copy and, lo and behold, one or both barrels had dents in them. One I bought on approval had a bulge. Typical comment afterwards "I guess I didn't see that".
Bulges are bad business, very hard to remove without creating a thin wall condition right in the bulge area. If one was removed in the past you may not see it but the barrel wall thickness measurements will tell the story. Shallow dents are removed relatively easily except in the last 4" or so at the muzzle in the tapered choke area. A really deep dent or one that is sharply creased is going to be a problem.
You mentioned the seller stated the chambers are 2-3/4" Original chambers in your gun were no-doubt 2-5/8" which means they were probably opened. Sometimes the person was very liberal when he used the re-chamber reamer, running it in well beyond 2-3/4". Barrel wall measurements at the head of the chamber into the forcing cone are definitely in order. The comment on proof for 2-3/4" is interesting. Fox guns generally have Fox or Savage proof stampings on the barrel flats but that was with the original chambers and proof cartridges for that era. If the chambers and/or bores have been modified the factory proof mark stamp is irrelevant.
Silvers
Bulges are bad business, very hard to remove without creating a thin wall condition right in the bulge area. If one was removed in the past you may not see it but the barrel wall thickness measurements will tell the story. Shallow dents are removed relatively easily except in the last 4" or so at the muzzle in the tapered choke area. A really deep dent or one that is sharply creased is going to be a problem.
You mentioned the seller stated the chambers are 2-3/4" Original chambers in your gun were no-doubt 2-5/8" which means they were probably opened. Sometimes the person was very liberal when he used the re-chamber reamer, running it in well beyond 2-3/4". Barrel wall measurements at the head of the chamber into the forcing cone are definitely in order. The comment on proof for 2-3/4" is interesting. Fox guns generally have Fox or Savage proof stampings on the barrel flats but that was with the original chambers and proof cartridges for that era. If the chambers and/or bores have been modified the factory proof mark stamp is irrelevant.
Silvers
Aan
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bamboozler
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Doublegun,
Why did you say?: "Check for minimum wall thickness (.020" nine inches or so from the muzzle)."
Shouldn't the MWT measurements be taken everywhere along the barrel's length? For example: Wouldn't it be a concern if a dent or buldge was removed say 15" or 20" or 22" from the muzzle and the wall thickness was reduced to something below .020 from striking the dent or buldge during removal? I would think that the MWT should be just that---the MWT anywhere in the barrel to have any meaning.
The Birmingham and London Proof Houses measure bore diameter 9" from the breech.
Why did you say?: "Check for minimum wall thickness (.020" nine inches or so from the muzzle)."
Shouldn't the MWT measurements be taken everywhere along the barrel's length? For example: Wouldn't it be a concern if a dent or buldge was removed say 15" or 20" or 22" from the muzzle and the wall thickness was reduced to something below .020 from striking the dent or buldge during removal? I would think that the MWT should be just that---the MWT anywhere in the barrel to have any meaning.
The Birmingham and London Proof Houses measure bore diameter 9" from the breech.
Bamboozler,
Damage anywhere in the barrel needs to be checked out but barrels are normally at their thinnest around 9" from the muzzle because of how barrels are struck. They are thickest at the breech where pressure is highest and thin out towards the muzzle where pressure is lowest. This allows the tube to withstand generated pressure along its length with minimum weight. It also gives the tube a graceful swamp that creates a visual elegance that we all appreciate in a fine gun. 9" or so from the muzzle was just a suggestion as to where the barrels would likely be at their thinnest. The idea is to find out if the barrels have been messed with, and if they have, how bad have they been messed with.
Cheers, Pete
Damage anywhere in the barrel needs to be checked out but barrels are normally at their thinnest around 9" from the muzzle because of how barrels are struck. They are thickest at the breech where pressure is highest and thin out towards the muzzle where pressure is lowest. This allows the tube to withstand generated pressure along its length with minimum weight. It also gives the tube a graceful swamp that creates a visual elegance that we all appreciate in a fine gun. 9" or so from the muzzle was just a suggestion as to where the barrels would likely be at their thinnest. The idea is to find out if the barrels have been messed with, and if they have, how bad have they been messed with.
Cheers, Pete
DoubleGun Cases
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Gretagrouse
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George Lander
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A good 12 bore A Grade for $1,000 or under & a good Sterlingworth for $800 are both good buys as long as there are no hidden problems other than a dent in the barrel. Take them to a good double gunsmith or to Hidden Hollow next weekend & get sond professional advice before purchasing.
Just My Humble Opinion.......George
Just My Humble Opinion.......George
"Therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee"......John Donne
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Gretagrouse
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Thanks George,
Unfortunatly I won't be able to make it to Hidden Hollow. I hate being new to something and not knowing what to do or how to go about doing it. Thankfully I'm getting alot of sound advice here. Without having either gun in my hands and only a 3day inspection I feel like I'll never find one.
Unfortunatly I won't be able to make it to Hidden Hollow. I hate being new to something and not knowing what to do or how to go about doing it. Thankfully I'm getting alot of sound advice here. Without having either gun in my hands and only a 3day inspection I feel like I'll never find one.
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George Lander
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Gretagrouse
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What I've found so far.....
Hi all,
Just received the A grade. She's led a hard life. So far I've found the lever to be left of center a little, and I can feel a slight movement when the barrels are moved without forend on. Its not much but you can feel it. The barrels ring good but inside are dirty. I'm geti=ting ready to swab them now. I called the owner and told him I received it today and that if everything checked out ok I would keep it. He wanted to know when I could let him know, so I told him monday and he said no, "I need to know by tomorrow." Said he had other people wanting it. So that threw up a red flag!! So much for the 3 day inspection period he claims he allows on his website. So I need some serious help. What do you guys think?
As always thanks for the help.
Tim
Just received the A grade. She's led a hard life. So far I've found the lever to be left of center a little, and I can feel a slight movement when the barrels are moved without forend on. Its not much but you can feel it. The barrels ring good but inside are dirty. I'm geti=ting ready to swab them now. I called the owner and told him I received it today and that if everything checked out ok I would keep it. He wanted to know when I could let him know, so I told him monday and he said no, "I need to know by tomorrow." Said he had other people wanting it. So that threw up a red flag!! So much for the 3 day inspection period he claims he allows on his website. So I need some serious help. What do you guys think?
As always thanks for the help.
Tim
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George Lander
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Gretagrouse
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Gretagrouse
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