Questions: Fox C grade 16 gauge -- PHOTOS ADDED

Chukarman · Post by **Chukarman** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:46 pm

I have on my desk, a C grade Fox 16 gauge - #300004. It seems right with one very significant exception - a rather old single trigger conversion that does not appear to be a Kautzky trigger. The trigger is slectable with a sliding selector button just to the left of the top tang. The center bar has been removed to accommodate the trigger unit, which is held in place by a single screw just behind the trigger blade.

Barrels are 28" stamped 'Chromox Fluid Compressed steel'. Choke constrictions are .005 and .012

Snap-on forend metal

Chromox steel action w/ zero CC

New style C grade engraving

I am considering a trade for my Harkom 16 BLE, but I am a bit spooked by the ST alteration.

What is such a gun worth, considering condition is high, though there is no CC?

C Man

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:38 pm

Sounds like the Infallable Single Trigger installed by Lancaster Arms Co. in Lancaster, PA. A.H. Fox Gun Co. didn't begin offering the Fox-Kautzky Single Selective Trigger to the general public until they stuck an insert in the 1914 catalogues.

IMHO the Infallable is not a very desireable single trigger. As I understand it, it doesn't reset. If you fire the right barrel, open the gun and reload it is then going to fire the left barrel unless you manually move the selector to fire the right barrel first.

On the other hand, such an early graded 16-gauge would be very desireable if in decent condition. We'd love to see pictures.

Tom Kidd did an article on a fairly early CE-Grade 20-gauge, serial number 200319, with an Infallable single trigger, in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Six, Issue 4, page 47.

Chukarman · Post by **Chukarman** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:04 pm

I will try to get some pictures done and post them. Not sure I want to trade a gun worth about $4K to $5K for this Fox. Decent gun and dimensions are good, but I am uncertain about the ST.

I am taking to Pete Mazur in a couple of days for a thorough vetting.

FRBRIT · Post by **FRBRIT** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:19 pm

Please post some pictures when you get the time. If you could take one of the checkering pattern on the forearm. I own 300061 it's C-grade that has the snap off forearm and I'd sure like to see another one of the same vintage.

I looked at a Fox at Tulsa that had the same trigger as your describing. I wish I would have wrote down some particulars on it now.

DoubleGun · Post by **DoubleGun** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:30 pm

Chukarman,
You might consider who can work on the trigger when it goes wrong. If there is anything on shotgun that will go wrong, given time, it is a single trigger on a gun with two barrels. Even if the gun is working properly now, there is no guarantee how long it will last. Then you need someone who can fix it. If you are going to shoot the gun, rather than collect it, an out-of-production single trigger is risky. It does sound like a historical gun though.
Cheers, DoubleGun

TimmS · Post by **TimmS** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:17 pm

chuckerman I have an earlier DE 16ga and unfortunatly it has the same trigger. It must have been the trigger de jour.

t

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:30 pm

IMHO such an early smallbore Ansley H. Fox is more of a collectable then a serious shooter.

Chukarman · Post by **Chukarman** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:19 pm

DoubleGun wrote:Chukarman,
You might consider who can work on the trigger when it goes wrong. If there is anything on shotgun that will go wrong, given time, it is a single trigger on a gun with two barrels. Even if the gun is working properly now, there is no guarantee how long it will last. Then you need someone who can fix it. If you are going to shoot the gun, rather than collect it, an out-of-production single trigger is risky. It does sound like a historical gun though.
Cheers, DoubleGun

Yep, I recognize the ehortcomings of ST doubles. You always need to have a good smith or two handy. I have a pretty good relationship with Dennis Potter, who I consider an excellent trigger man and one of the best double gun smiths in the country. Pete Mazur also does a lot of work for me, and is outstanding at restoration and finishing, as a well as general gunsmithing.

IMHO such an early smallbore Ansley H. Fox is more of a collectable then a serious shooter.

I intend to use this gun, if I do the deal and trade for it. It will not be abused.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:43 am

Just an aside on these early single triggers. I've been perusing old American Fields and have come across ads in the 1906-1909 period for 2 or 3 different single trigger systems that were offered for common gun makes including Fox. Of course all these were pre-Kautzky. It seems the advent of the L C Smith Hunter-One trigger caused quite a stir amongst sportsmen. Some wrote letters to the editor in favor of single triggers, others against same. Personally I wouldn't turn away an otherwise nice Fox if it had a single trigger, not a Kautzky. Any component that was made at one time using machine tools can be made again, probably of better/stronger material. Micro-TIG'ing is often an option to renew the very smallest parts and surfaces without melting the surrounding metal. With that said though, IMO a Fox with one of these earlier triggers should be reserved for hunting use, not racking up a full circuit each and every weekend on a clays course.

It sounds like C-man wants to use this Fox for hunting and occasionally on a range or course. I'll be interested in hearing more if the deal goes through. Silvers

bbman3 · Post by **bbman3** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:24 pm

If the trigger does not work properly and you cannot get it repaired you could have it converted back to double triggers.Wonder what the Fox letter says if it came with double triggers or not?

TimmS · Post by **TimmS** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:27 pm

I would not pass this deal up.

tim

Chukarman · Post by **Chukarman** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:24 pm

Here are a few photos... snap shots, so please do not critique my photos...

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:38 pm

Chukarman, thanks for posting the pics. The gun looks good and the trigger is definitely an Infallible. By coincidence I read the DGJ article that Dave cited on the early 20 gauge CE, just this evening, and the shift button and trigger plate modification are the same as in the article. Frank

Chukarman · Post by **Chukarman** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:23 pm

Frank

Thanks for the confirmation. I only have one other ST SxS - a Model 21. So I am not sure on my ID's on these. I am leaning towards doing the deal if the seller likes my Harkom - it is a Hell of a nice gun.

Mike

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:34 am

If a hundred year old trigger works today, why would it fail next year?? My Infallible trigger guns work just fine and I expect them to continue working. I wouldn't turn down the fourth 16 gauge graded Fox, whether it had a trigger or not. Personally, I would like to see the box lock Harkom that is worth four grand, or three.