HE 20 Bore and Choke

[eightbore]

With all this discussion about smallbores, give me time for an easy question with some easy answers. There isn't much information on bore diameters and degrees of choke in Super Fox twenties . McIntosh mentions .033 of choke in 20 gauge Super Foxes, and skirts around "overbored" with no specifics. Can some of our members share the bore and choke dimensions of their HE grade Super Fox twenties? Thanks.

[jolly bill]

Bill,

I will gladly comply with your request tomorrow morning. I don't have the tools for the bore diameter but can get the choke dimensions at the muzzle.

So, please standby.

Bill

[vaturkey]

Bill,
This thread might be helpful.

http://forum.foxcollectors.com/viewtopi ... t=overbore

[fox-admin]

The ones I have measure are .010 overbored .625/.627 versus about .617 for the standard 20's. The full chokes measure .035.

[eightbore]

The reason I am requesting the bore diameters of HE 20s is that 12 gauge Supers are all over the map, not just early and late guns, but probably guns that were fooled with at the factory to attain desired patterns. I suspect that the same experimenting with bore and choke dimensions occurred with 20 gauge Supers also. I have measured one gun, apparently unaltered from original, that has a .633 bore and .042 choke. I suspect that the bore was enlarged, with no modification at the choke end, to attain the 80% pattern. Craig Larter's six gun test group (mentioned in Tom Archer's 2011 DGJ articles) may not have included an overbore as large as .633, but I suspect more of those over-overbored 20 gauges exist. More sample measurements may solve the mystery. Thanks to Craig Larter for the previous post.

[Rbishop]

I wish I owned one to measure!

[eightbore]

I feel the same way, but I'm doing research here. Craig Larter is the only one to measure any 20 gauge Supers and report back. I'm trying to flush out the other fifty some examples. All the owners have to do is measure the bores and chokes and report. Thanks to all that respond.

[jolly bill]

Bill,

I will gladly comply with your request tomorrow morning. I don't have the tools for the bore diameter but can get the choke dimensions at the muzzle.

So, please standby.

Bill

Got 'er dun!

Some info and pictures of my 20 gauge Sterlingworth (thanks Daryl) SN 262292 with 28" BBL's choked Full in left BBL and Mod in the right BBL. And my HE20 SN 202290 with 32" Full and Full.

S'worth 20 Mod = 0.595" and Full = 0.585" and HE20 both BBL's about 0.575".
I used a set of dial calipers. It's all I got so those numbers are probably not exact. Probably on the high side.

The pictures show me using a Frank Mittermeir choke and chamber gauge. Just have to check the Index mark on the gauge where it is located and compare with the two guns. The Mittermeir will just barely go into the S'worth Full choke and will not go into the HE20 Full choke.

I do not have any instruments to measure the bore. Just the Mittermeir.

So, some pictures for any benefit they might provide.

Jolly

[fox-admin]

The reason I am requesting the bore diameters of HE 20s is that 12 gauge Supers are all over the map, not just early and late guns, but probably guns that were fooled with at the factory to attain desired patterns. I suspect that the same experimenting with bore and choke dimensions occurred with 20 gauge Supers also. I have measured one gun, apparently unaltered from original, that has a .633 bore and .042 choke. I suspect that the bore was enlarged, with no modification at the choke end, to attain the 80% pattern. Craig Larter's six gun test group (mentioned in Tom Archer's 2011 DGJ articles) may not have included an overbore as large as .633, but I suspect more of those over-overbored 20 gauges exist. More sample measurements may solve the mystery. Thanks to Craig Larter for the previous post.

Extra full chokes for a 20ga is .027 (73% at 40 yards). So .035 in a 20ga SF makes sense since they were aiming for 80%. .042 and .633 would be suspect to me.

[eightbore]

Craig, the suspect barrels would have to be patterned. My 20 gauge Beretta International Trap gun has .040 in the top barrel and shoots well. Parker Repros are over .040 and shoot well. The HE 20 barrel dimension at the muzzle is the same for the .040 choke and the .033 or .027 with a smaller bore. Only the bores seem to be enlarged, most likely at the factory. We may never know, but we would like more examples. Maybe the .042 choked gun will throw a 90% pattern, don't know.

[Researcher]

What cartridge were the 20-gauge Super-Fox guns targeted with? What size shot? The Western Super-X load with 1-ounce of shot in their 2 3/4-inch FIELD shell? All things we don't know.

My 1933 Ithaca NID No. 4E 30-inch 20-gauge has .038" and .042" chokes with bores of .623" right and .629" left.

[loggy]

I apologize for the late reply. I am like Jolly and can’t measure a twenty gauge bore.

[eightbore]

The choke dimensions of Dave's NID are identical to the HE 20 that I measured. Very interesting. Next step, in addition to waiting for more replies, is to pattern this gun. Has Dave patterned his NID? I haven't patterned my .040 choked 20 gauge Beretta even though I have been shooting it for forty years.

[MARSHFELLOW]

tjw

[Researcher]

I looked through the three Super-Fox booklets I know of and there is really nothing about the 20-gauge in the 20-page A.H. Fox Gun Co. booklets, nothing at all in the 1923 and just that the Super-Fox is available in 20-gauge in the 1925 booklet. Interestingly there is a bit about the 20-gauge in the 16-page Savage Super-Fox booklet --

The 20-gauge info is all on page 7 --

My review of the 20-gauge Super-Fox production cards showed three were ordered chambered for 3-inch shells. The cards also show three with the notation chamber for 2 3/4-inch. Two guns that went in Savage's sale of Odds & Ends to J.L. Galef have the notation chamber 2 5/8-inch. Are a lot of the 20-gauge Super-Fox guns folks say have 2 1/2-inch chambers really a tight 2 5/8-inch chamber intended for 2 3/4-inch shells that their "industry standard" gauge actually doesn't really go in to the end of the chamber?