Single trigger question.

Post by **fox-admin** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:41 am

Does the Kautzky single trigger (selectable type) have a different trigger plate than a double trigger gun? If yes that would mean if a gun was converted by the Factory to single trigger the trigger plate would have to changed or just modified. McIntosh says it was a $20. option either on a new gun or for a conversion. Does anybody know where that is stated in Fox literature? Thanks

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:36 am

There was a Fox-Kautzky Single Selective Trigger folder inserted in many of the 1914 "Fox Gets the Game" catalogues. In that folder they stated "We will fit this trigger to your Fox gun for $20. The entire gun must be sent, shipping charges prepaid. Or we will equip new Fox Guns of any grade with the Fox-Kautzky Single Trigger at a cost of $20, in addition to the regular price of the gun." Essentially the same statement is in the 1915 to 17 "Fox Gets the Game" catalogues. By 1919 the price was up to $23 and in 1920 it jumped to $31 where it stayed thru 1925. In 1926 it dropped to $28.90 where it remained thru early 1932. In June 1932 it was upped to $31.50. Then in 1933 they dropped it back to $23. In 1935 they dropped it to $21 where it stayed thru 1940. June 1941 it was up to $23.95. January 1942, it was up to $27.50, and the last price list I have is January 1945 where the Fox-Kautzky Single Selective trigger is retail $28.20.

A December 1966 price list from the factory for repairs lists furnishing and fitting a Fox-Kautzky SST at $70. A subsequent letter dated November 1968 states they are out of single trigger parts.

Post by **fox-admin** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:52 am

Thanks Dave I will copy your response and keep it. Thanks Does anybody know the answer to the trigger plate question. I assume the trigger plates were different?

Don Ay · Post by **Don Ay** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:54 am

craig.
I have a pair of HE's one with one with out the trigger and the trigger plate on the gun with is just slightly less than 32nd of inch wider than the one with out.
With out taking the gun apart it looks as if thu the selector takes the place of where the right trigger would be using the same slot possibly.
I have a 1924 Catalog and the price is only shown on the blue price sheet supplied with it as Researcher said $31

MARSHFELLOW · Post by **MARSHFELLOW** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:02 pm

Craig, I have been TOLD that the trigger plates are different inside but they can be modified/adapted. I was given this info by a veteran Fox fan who I certainly believe. I personally have never had one apart. T

FRBRIT · Post by **FRBRIT** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:25 pm

Craig, I don't know if this will help or not, it certainly doesn't answer the trigger slot question but it may help with what's inside the single trigger mechanism.

This one has been on GA for some time now. I've enlarged it and from what I can see there are some machined components to the trigger plate that are unique to the single trigger. I assume these would have to be milled off for a double trigger conversion. I have a double trigger plate in my hand as I write this and it looks like the single trigger plate is definitely machined special for the Kautsky single trigger.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/945683343/Gu ... rigger.htm

Post by **fox-admin** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:34 pm

So if a gun was sent back to the factory for a single trigger and the trigger plate had to be modified it have to be annealed, machined and re-case colored. Does that make sense? The reason I ask is I am looking at a gun that has been converted to a single trigger and the case color on the trigger plate is a little different. I just trying to understand the probable process. Thanks Craig

loggy · Post by **loggy** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:01 pm

I have a graded gun with that has been converted to a Miller trigger. I was told that to convert it back would require a new trigger plate. The Miller seem to fit the preexisting slot. Researcher has seen this gun and may have a further comment. The gun shoots well so I have left well enough alone.

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:42 pm

Anything is possible with the application of enough money. I read of "Crossedchisles" removing a Miller and converting a Parker Bros. AA Pigeon Gun back to its original double triggers. Also, back in the late 1950s or early 1960s a second cousin of mine in Minnesota had the malfuctioning Hunter One Trigger removed from his Crown Grade L.C. Smith and it refitted with double triggers.

I can't imagine AHFGCo. engraving and finishing a new FE-Grade trigger plate for a single trigger for $20. They must have been able to use the original trigger plate.

yelloh564 · Post by **yelloh564** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:00 pm

Marshfellow and FrBrit are spot correct. It is very easy to convert from the ST to the DT by milling the lugs off that are used to hold the rocker pivot assy. The selector switch is removed and the slot is lengthened just slightly to allow the insertion of the left trigger. both sears are then changed out.
To convert from a DT to a ST requires a new floor plate with the two cast lugs sticking up that allow the pivot rocker and pin to be assembled. These two lugs are cast into the original floorplate. It could be done with an original DT floorplate ( I know all too well).. Very costly if you were paying someone to have the work done....I have numerous NOS parts for the orig Fox-Kautzky trigger, Triggers, springs, pivot rockers, inertia blocks, sears etc. But no Floorplates.

Post by **fox-admin** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:08 am

yellow564: So do you believe the process at the factory for converting a single trigger was to make and engrave a new floor plate or modify the double trigger floor plate? If it was modified would it make sense that the plate would have to be annealed to accomplish the required machining? Craig

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:58 am

Sorry Craig, I know you asked technically about the Kautzky design and how they were installed on Foxes but I'll throw a tangent here on the application and perceived usefulness of single vs. double triggers.

FWIW I've read numerous articles circa 1905/6 regarding the Hunter One single trigger system used in L C Smiths. Of course that was well before the Fox-Kautzky system came on the market. Most writers agreed that in impromptu hunting situations the time required to recover from surprise and switch the barrel selector often negated the advantage of selecting one choke or the other. The primary advantage of the single trigger setup seemed to be speed of firing the second shot with live bird guns and etc. where the firing sequence was always the same or both choke constrictions might be ~ equal. Some period writers even questioned that. Ergo, regular double triggers were the preferred setup and mostly recommended for people buying guns with two wide degrees of choke such as IC and Mod, etc. Anyway, this was an interesting takeaway from the old-timers on single trigger systems and your thread prompted me to share this summary. Frank

APS · Post by **APS** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:25 am

I used a Serlingwoth double trigger set (complete) to replace the single tigger (kautzky) in my XE 12. It was a simple exchange of trigger plates. I have now had the single trigger repaired and it is back in the XE.

al

yelloh564 · Post by **yelloh564** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:59 pm

Craig, I would think they swapped out the floor plate. The other route is very labor intensive and I doubt they would have enough confidence in the welded or brazed lugs that would have to be added.. Just my thoughts.

Germantown · Post by **Germantown** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:35 am

Both my AE 12 Fox with Krupp barrels and my Utica 16 Sterlingworth have the standard double triggers. A friend once speculated that single triggers for double shotguns were developed as the obviously single triggered pumps and autoloaders were becoming popular.

Did Fox ever offer a single non-selective trigger, or were their single triggers always selective. LC Smiths are indeed fine guns, but I have heard their Hunter One Trigger is not reliable, and almost impossible to repair. Also it seems very few English made double guns have single triggers, most have double triggers and straight grip stocks.

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