bending cocking dogs

[mstaffor]

I recall some time back a member posted in the forum that he had made a tool to bend the cocking dogs on his Fox so the barrels opened and cleared the breach when loading. I have a fox with cocking dogs that are uneven so you need to push the barrels away from the receiver a bit to load the shells. I would like to have this repaired so the barrels clear the receiver without the extra push. I searched the forums without success on this one.
Any one who can help?

[Silvers]

I don't remember that post here; but then again we got up early to travel to our daughter's home. A little tired and not enough java yet this morning. I'm not sure what you refer to as "cocking dogs". I've haven't heard that term before. Since you used the plural I assume you mean the front ends of the hammers that bear against the cocking slide when the gun is opened to cock. The hammer tails are hardened steel and I doubt they can be cold bent much without breaking. And if you heat and bend you're going to end up with annealed steel that will likely bend back with use. Of course you can reharden them but that's a science and something most people don't understand or can control so the hammer tails don't get too hard/brittle or stay too soft. The biggest problem withtrying to bend the hammer tails is the hammers must be removed and reinstalled each and every time to try the timing adjustment. I heartily recommend you don't try that without tools to recompress the hammer springs.

Now, if you're talking about bending the tip of the cocking slide (singular) to accomplish the same thing - again I wouldn't recommend it. There isn't much surface there to bend since it's so short, and again it would take the annealing and rehardening approach. You could remove material from the underside of its tip to accomplish the same thing but that would be on a trial and error basis and a little too much removed.... ooops! Now the gun won't cock.

Most Fox guns must be held a little past the hammer cocking position to insert the shells. Personally that's fine. I'd much rather get positive cocking of the hammers a little early in the timing cycle than try to adjust the timing so the hammers cock at the very end of the barrel opening motion. As any part wears, you've got a gun that won't cock one or both hammers.

Short answer - I'd recommend you leave it alone. Silvers

[eightbore]

Modifications to allow a double gun to "lay fully open" defeat the original advantage of such a feature, keeping the shells from falling out when carrying the gun open. It's a little like training a new shooter to catch his shells when using an ejector gun. You get used to it, develop a system, and forget that there was ever a problem. It would be a bit of a pain to have to hold a gun open to load when shooting competitive trap, but in any other game, it's a non-issue. I think we have all noticed that most 32" barrel guns stay fully open because of the forward weight. Maybe that's why 32" guns are becoming so popular.

[Silvers]

Bill, a good perspective. On the 32" gun popularity, it's definitely because of the sporting clays influence. Almost every serious sporting clays shooter I know who is also a SxS enthusiast, either has a 32" SxS with lighter weigh barrels, or is looking for one.... or more. Same benefit as in regular sporting clays, longer sighting plane and easier to control than shorter barrels. Frank

[FRBRIT]

I think the thread you may be looking for was either here or on doublegun bbs dealing with primer bound guns. The subject dealt with guns that opened hard after firing both barrels and the firing pins stuck in the primers and wouldn't let the gun open.

The solution that someone came up with was to slightly bend the cocking tangs on the hammers, so the cocking slide would engage them a little sooner and start cocking the hammers faster and pull the pins out of the primers so the gun could open.

The other suggestion was to add some metal to the cocking slide were it engages the hammer tangs there by starting to cock the hammers sooner.

[DoubleGun]

I would agree that attempting to adjust the cocking tabs of the hammers is a risky, tedious proceedure to correct a problem that doesn't exist. You put a pair of shells in, they rest against the upper edge of the breech, just before you close the gun you open it that last little bit, the shells fall home and you close the gun. It does become unconcious.
The stiker problem is due to hard primers used when the guns were made and softer primers now in use. The nose of the striker was made long enough to deal with denting the early primers deep enough to set them off. Today we use softer caps and that allows those long firing pins to really put a good deep dent in them. Sometimes modern primers are even pierced. So the striker essentially nails the primer and shell to the breech. The usual remedy is to open the gun over ones knee. I know a fellow who broke a Purdey in half that way. He was a little sick about the whole thing. Trimming and shaping the nose of the stiker is a quick job and solves the problem. This long stiker problem is not just a Fox thing, it happens with many of the classic doubles.

[Dick Jones]

I made a crude tool to do this a year or so back. the tool allowed me to hold the hammer in the vise and tighten a screw against what you're calling the cocking dog.

I did it because one of them was bent and since they were not paired, it caused the gun to feel funny when you opened it.

If you want a photo of the tool, email me and I/ll try to get you one.

Dick Jones

[eightbore]

I always suspected that the primer bound guns I have shot over the years were not that way when they were new. I never experimented much with different primers to see whether the problem would be solved by using a harder primer, but I suspected that was the problem and the solution. Actually, I never shot many guns that had the problem, since most guns I was shooting were Parkers and they don't seem to have the problem. As I remember from experiences years ago, it was mostly non ejector Foxes (and maybe Smiths??) that exhibited the primer bound problem. Non ejector Model 21s sometimes stick, but it doesn't seem to be the hammer nose that is the problem. After about forty years experience with non ejector Model 21s, I still don't know why they stick after firing. However, they do. All ejector guns seem to be rather immune from the problem for some reason. One poster mentioned a Purdey with the problem, but I wouldn't know about that. I don't own any Purdeys and don't have much experience shooting them.

[Silvers]

If anyone has a Fox that gets primer bound, try using Remington primed shells to see if they help. Remington primers seem to be harder than others. Winchesters are softer. I routinely use Remington primers exclusively and rarely have difficulty with one barrel or the other. Usually the hammer tip (firing pin) protrusion is about 50-55 thou but I once owned a Fox that was something like 70 thou on one barrel. That one would stick with Remingtons. I cut it back to 50 and reprofiled the nose and the problem went away. The timing of the cocking slide contacting the hammer tails is critical. If someone modifies same to make the gun cock later in the opening cycle, to allow shells to slide home without pushing down on the barrels, the primer bound problem is going to get worse. Frank

[eightbore]

That is usually the case. Solve one problem by the use of the file, and some other problem becomes evident. None of my double guns that "work" have ever been opened up, including Krieghoffs and Brownings. It is not just the classic guns that benefit from "no screw turned".