CE 16 bore -- No Safety

[Stan Hillis]

I don't quite understand what you mean about the importance of speed of reloading and shooting at live bird matches. I shoot flyers from time to time and the matches are held roughly the same as they have been for 100 years. One shooter at the line per ring, at the time. Slow and methodical reloading, no hurry. The trap will not spring until shooter calls "Pull", both barrels are fired, then take your time to reload and get set for the next bird.

Heavy guns are not necessarily cumbersome, either. The weight is a great help in managing the recoil from the heavy loads used to reliably kill pigeons inside the ring. My pigeon gun is 9 lbs. 3 oz. and moves very quickly. It's where the weight is concentrated on the gun that determines how lively it is, not the overall weight itself.

Not saying the 16 above wasn't ordered for live bird matches, the lack of a safety is one reason to believe it may have been. But, if it was my money is on it being for a woman. It is not the typical live bird gun.

SRH

[mobirdhunter]

I would bet my money on its intention were for live pigeon shooting. I have a LC Smith 20 ga. Ejectors with no safety. A lot of people have questioned why a 20 Ga. Live bird gun ? A lot of us have concluded it was ordered for a woman or a child. I would think in live bird shooting you would want a light, quick handling gun that had as many things that could cause a mishap or a missed bird eliminated from the picture. The other thing of importance was how fast you could fire, reload and fire again accurately & efficiently. I would think if you were handling a gun that's somewhat on the heavy & cumbersome side it would take a toll on the shooter. I believe the serious shooters shot many many shots in a gathering, From what I've learned there was a lot of betting in the day at live bird shoots with some high steaks involved

I like your theory. All of the live bird guns that I have seen were heavy 12s. Many English makers designed heavy guns especially for live bird shooting, as did the better American makers. The weight absorbed some of the recoil of the many shots fired. Since you stand in one place and shoot, the weight of the gun was not a factor like it would be for walk-up hunting. Live bird shooting eventually evolved into trap shooting (thus the term "trap" for the apparatus that held the bird, and the term clay "pigeon") and the special guns for this sport were based on those early designs for live bird shooting -- long barrels, single triggers, beavertail forearms. There are some good written accounts of live bird shoots, and you are absolutely correct about the high stakes. I'm sure that there must have been some events that included women and children, but I have not read of any. In any event, I sure do appreciate your theories and the time you took to respond. I'll get the card on this gun in my next cycle, and maybe it will have a note on it to help resolve this matter. I'll post any information I get.

BTW, how is your little Smith choked? Is it also stocked straight (with less that normal-for-the-time drop at comb and heel)? I'll bet it's a nice carrying gun. I hope you get to use it often.

Thanks again!

[Silvers]

Stan is right on with his comments and like him, I've also shot at the rings. I think that anyone who can manage to get an invitation to actually shoot live birds in a race setting will come away knowing how it works and what guns are most likely to be competitive. That's in comparison to reading about it and trying to extrapolate those accounts to fit a SxS gun that has no safety but few of the other typical live bird characteristics to include gauge/shot load, barrels, weight, chokes, etc. To be sure, any sporting gun with a regular safety could be used at the ring but I'd say that very few serious competitors would have ordered a safetyless gun that would otherwise handicap them when chips were down and heavy money on the line. Doesn't make sense to me. Also, this shooting is virtually unchanged for well over a century now and I've never seen side events specified for women or younger/older age groups. Everyone shoots the same except for yardage movebacks for the better shooters. In sum, I'd say your CE 16 was ordered by someone who just didn't like or trust a safety for whatever hunting they were doing. BTW, looks and sounds like a nice gun.

EDITED/ADDED: legal in several states and nowadays participation is typically and only by invitation with names checked at the gate. When I was shooting races I never saw any "spectators" who weren't shooters themselves or family members. I often saw SxS guns although they were in the great minority. The vintage ones were up to shooting heavy 3-1/4 DE, 1-1/4 ounce pigeon loads.

July at a club owned by a friend. Double click to expand and you'll see the boundary fence.

[mobirdhunter]

Stan is right on with his comments and like him, I've also shot at the rings. BTW, looks and sounds like a nice gun.

July at a club owned by a friend. Double click to expand and you'll see the boundary fence.

IMG_2245.JPG

What I do know is that this Fox is a delight to carry and is deadly on rising birds (wild quail and pheasants over my Gordon’s).

I’m curious where live bird shooting still takes place. I thought it was illegal in the US. I would like to see a match...especially if vintage guns were used.

Thanks again to all who have commented. It’s nice to muse over these wonderful pieces of history.

[kgb]

Sweet gun! I'm told the bobwhites are making themselves better heard up in Harrison County, hope you have a great season with the dogs.

[mobirdhunter]

Sweet gun! I'm told the bobwhites are making themselves better heard up in Harrison County, hope you have a great season with the dogs.

Thanks!! Quail numbers have been up for the past two years. I'm hoping that flooding rains this past spring in Harrison Co. did not hurt this year's hatch. Drought here in Putnam and Adair Co., floods in Harrison. Just follow the dogs, carry a Fox, and hope for the best. I hope your season goes well.

Garry

[eightbore]

Are we going to see the card?

[mobirdhunter]

Are we going to see the card?

I'll put in for the card on my "cycle" date, April of next year. I'll be sure to post anything that might shed light on the gun.

Thanks for asking...

Garry

[kgb]

Thanks, Garry, we ran into some quail here in September on dove and prairie chicken hunts, may wind up trying southern Iowa this year as they are supposed to be doing well with quail and even some return of pheasants. Lost our 7yo Gordon but the 11yo is doing well. Got 2 pups just 3mos old so the next generation is on its way.

Kirk

[mobirdhunter]

Thanks, Garry, we ran into some quail here in September on dove and prairie chicken hunts, may wind up trying southern Iowa this year as they are supposed to be doing well with quail and even some return of pheasants. Lost our 7yo Gordon but the 11yo is doing well. Got 2 pups just 3mos old so the next generation is on its way.

Kirk

Kirk,

Very sorry to learn of the loss of your Gordon. I know how hard the loss of a dog before its time can be. Several years ago we had a 5 year old die while retrieving a grouse in northern MN -- he just died, no issues up to that point. He was a Springset dog. Laura guarantees her dogs for 5 years, so we got our "free" replacement pup this past September (she was kind enough to wait until we were ready for another pup), and we are heading to northern MN tomorrow(!!!) for our annual two week grouse hunt with three dogs and a 12 week old pup (wish us luck traveling with four dogs!).

We hunt south-central Iowa regularly, and have for over 35 years. We go during our Missouri deer season to avoid deer hunters, and again after our bird season closes in mid-January. The last two years were good, not like back in the late 80s/earl 90s, but we found birds consistently and the coveys were large. We hunt Wayne, Decatur and Ringold most, and found lots of pheasants after the season ended (while hunting quail) in Marion County. As you mention, prospects look decent for southern Iowa, so good luck if you get out that way. BTW, we had good hunts in Harrison Co., MO last year and found several coveys that had nearly 30 birds in them. They got some flooding storms in Harrison and Grundy Co. this past spring, so who knows how the birds will have produced. We may try Kansas this year again. Oklahoma in Feb. and West Virginia for grouse to end the season in Feb. Wish we could go more!

I sure hope your pups turn out well for you and that you are into birds all season long.

Garry