Upgrade Fox vs. New Fox

[bonasa]

I was comparing the cost of a new CE with the cost of having a Philadelphia Sterlingworth upgraded to CE. I came up with about $2,000 more for the new gun. I like the idea of new barrels and the CSMC warranty but I was wondering what the opinion of more knowledgeable Fox owners would be? All opinions are welcome.

[fullchoke16]

For your 2000 you get a new gun made for you. If I could afford a new one, that's the route I'd go.Would also make something nice to pass on to the family. The best reason I can see for upgrading a Sterlingworth is if you have specific wood or engraving in mind.

[Researcher]

Having learned my lesson forty years ago sporterizing my DCM 03A3, I would definately go with a new gun.

[Glenn Fewless]

Mr. bonasa:

I would pull on the other end of that rope. I much prefer a restored or upgraded original to a reproduction. I just like old guns. The Sterlingworth is a sound platform on which to build a custom and the results can be fabulous. Look at some of Mr. Mann's work.

Restoring the orginal will have you more involved in the process. You pick your own wood. You pick your own stock maker and metalsmith and engraver. You can specify exactly what you want, or give the craftsman his head to work within your guidlines. You can get the perfect piece of wood, the perfect checkering pattern and exact the engraving you have always wanted.

There are pitfalls to be sure. You want to start with a gun that has a sound set of barrels and craftsmen you feel comfortable with. Sure, stuff can go wrong. Probably will. But in the end you have a one of a kind gun that is all that you wanted, the way you wanted it.


Glenn

[bamboozler]

If only $2000 less that would be a no brainer, but if there is only a $2000 difference you must have had David Trevallion and Winston Churchill providing estimates.

I know you can get a Philly Sterlingworth upgraded to a comparable CSMC Fox CE standard for more than $8000 less--maybe even $9000 to $10,000 less.

[bonasa]

If only $2000 less that would be a no brainer, but if there is only a $2000 difference you must have had David Trevallion and Winston Churchill providing estimates.

I know you can get a Philly Sterlingworth upgraded to a comparable CSMC Fox CE standard for more than $8000 less--maybe even $9000 to $10,000 less.

My refinisher is very good, but does not have near the international reputations of DT and WC. The CSMC Fox sells for $14,500. The only thing I am supplying no matter which I chose, is the stock blank. If you have the name of reputable guys who will provide and deliver a Philadelphia Fox SW upgraded to CE (quality of an original Philadelphia CE) for $6,500, $5,500 or $4,500, I would be thrilled to get the contact information.

[Researcher]

No upgrade is ever going to have the modern steels of a fresh CSMC gun.

[bamboozler]

If only $2000 less that would be a no brainer, but if there is only a $2000 difference you must have had David Trevallion and Winston Churchill providing estimates.

I know you can get a Philly Sterlingworth upgraded to a comparable CSMC Fox CE standard for more than $8000 less--maybe even $9000 to $10,000 less.

My refinisher is very good, but does not have near the international reputations of DT and WC. The CSMC Fox sells for $14,500. The only thing I am supplying no matter which I chose, is the stock blank. If you have the name of reputable guys who will provide and deliver a Philidelphia Fox SW upgraded to CE (quality of an original Philadelphia CE) for $6,500, $5,500 or $4,500, I would be thrilled to get the contact information.

I compared it to a CSMC CE at $14,500 base price, then I upgraded the wood to at least 4 star quality for another $2000, then added a skeleton butt plate for an additional $900 making it a total of $17,400...you may want more options at additional costs. When using the $17,400 price, I will state once more, I know you can do it, and IMHO higher quality engraving for more than $8000 less. I'd be happy to provide contact information...just PM me.

[Knothole]

For fresh modern steels you won't go wrong with a Remington International side by side. very robust action and barrels. No worries about pre war steel and short chambers. Ruskies hold their chambers long for 3 inchers. Best buy.

[abner]

Bonasa:

Just the new steels available today make the CSMC a better choice---think of all the problems with shells that will be eliminated. You also get to pick the wood, the barrels, the engraving, and modern metals that make a gun that will last another hundred years. If you can afford the CSMC gun do it. In January I ordered a 16/20 combo from CSMC and I'm still working on the old Foxes I have. I think you would be happy with both the old and new. Would you like to go back to the old Fox Factory in Philly and place an order? I know the answer is yes, some day you will not be able to order a Fox from CSMC either. So place an order while you still can.

[bonasa]

Bonasa:

Just the new steels available today make the CSMC a better choice---think of all the problems with shells that will be eliminated. You also get to pick the wood, the barrels, the engraving, and modern metals that make a gun that will last another hundred years. If you can afford the CSMC gun do it. In January I ordered a 16/20 combo from CSMC and I'm still working on the old Foxes I have. I think you would be happy with both the old and new. Would you like to go back to the old Fox Factory in Philly and place an order? I know the answer is yes, some day you will not be able to order a Fox from CSMC either. So place an order while you still can.

Ralph,

Very good points. I have been leaning in the direction of ordering another gun from Tony.

Thanks to everyone for their helpful input.

Wade

[Fin2Feather]

For what MHO's worth (not much), if a custom gun is what you're after, I'd rather see you buy the new gun and leave the old guns alone. Restoring a gun is one thing, upgrading it is another. Witty1's post is what it's about for me; seeing those old shooters still taking game - outstanding!

[Witty1]

Old upgrade vs. new, they are both great ideas and it comes down to what you enjoy. Being an avid bird hunter for many years I've seem it all from the auto loaders without the plug (5 shoots). To be coming a true American Sportsmen. The evolution of what I'll call old school hunting. Using a Classic American Double, 16 or 20 ga with two triggers, 26 inches. Maybe it's a piece of American history, or part of our heritage, my choice is a A.H. Fox, hopefully from Philly.

If you want to shoot a cheap, heavy, poorly fitting, Russian Remington, with 3 inch chambers fine, you just don't understand it and never will. But trying to decide between an upgrade and a new fox is a good problem. The point is they are both Foxes and American made.

[JRAnderson]

I'd have to agree with Glenn here. I've worked for 3 different high grade custom/production rifle manufacturers and now work for myself. It's a completely different mindset when you have the opportunity to do the custom work under you own name. Working for a larger gun company is just a job. No matter how hard you work. There's always somebody behind you poking you with a sharp stick. Forcing you to cut corners you wouldn't in your own shop. I can't count how many times I've heard "that's good enough". Much of the costs involved in purchasing a high grade factory firearm are eaten up in overhead. How much do you think ends in Tony's pocket? Did he spend any attention to detail filling the pores of the stock or striking the barrels until they are perfect? Or making sure every diamond is pointed to perfection. Very little of the purchase price ends up paying someone to very carefully do the absolute best job they can. They don't have the time or vested interest. I'd guess that it takes a day or 2 to inlet and shape a new factory Fox. A custom job including finishing and checkering can run 60 - 200 hours.

The best bolt guns in the world are built here in the states on old military contract Mausers. There's no comparison to the actions available newly manufactured today. The Fox Sterlingworth has become the Mauser98 of American double guns. The talent available from so many of the custom makers here equals what's available from across the pond selling for 6 figures. Many say the finish and checkering is far better done here by custom makers. I'd be interested in seeing what's inside the new Fox guns. How's the inletting look? Is it packed with glass to speed the inletting process? How well is the metalwork polished where you don't see it?

Every January The American Custom Gunmakers Guild has a show in Reno. Much of the work in that room far exceeds what you can buy as a production gun anywhere. If you are serious about best grade guns it would be well worth the trip to Reno to see first hand what's available.

I'm not saying that the new Foxes aren't fine shotguns. I just don't think it's a fair comparison to what's available for similar prices. But, it's only important to those who value the smallest of details.

[Ken Hurst]

James and Glenn are dead on ! You can get top level work from independents here in the ol USofA for less than you'd pay for a new Fox gun. Call some of these stockers, engravers and inquire as to cost & time for del. I believe you'll be pleasantly surprised. FWIW, Ken