Early Fox A question

[Gcs]

Good morning, brand new here, so I hope my questions don't seem too basic, I've been going though the topics and search and have already learned a lot.
I "saw" the above at an auction site, early A # 132X, 30" krupps barrels, Full and full, chamber for 3" ???
From what I've learned, that was not an option, could have had chambers lengthened I suppose, but that's a lot of ooomph for an old gun,or the dealer mistook the barrel weight numbers, probably a 3 as the weight is 7 3/4#, as the chamber length??
So, was any Fox ever chambered for 3"?

I always used to shoot a double, but not a "classic", and it is intriguing to contemplate, but still can't afford some of these phone # prices.This one is reasonable as it has had the stock refinished and a crack repaired.
It would have to be a shooter, mostly ducks and geese, probably with ITX shot, 2 3/4" would be fine with that.

Any thoughts, ideas or comments always appreciated. Thanks

[OH Osthaus]

welcome

why not ask for a picture of the barrel markings? And if or how he measured them

[Researcher]

Long shells have been around as long as cartridge shotguns have been around. As early as 1880, Union Metallic Cartridge Co. was offering 12-gauge paper cases from 2 5/8 inch to 3 1/4 inch. Once our North American ammunition manufacturers began offering factory loaded paper shot shells the heaviest 12-gauge loads being offered were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. These loads could be had in 2 3/4 inch cases or any of the longer cases, 2 7/8 inch or 3-inch in both bulk or dense and the 3 1/4 inch cases just with bulk. The longer cases offered more/better wadding, not a heavier payload. Loads as heavy as 3 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 26 grains of Infallible or Ballistite dense smokeless powders pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot were offered in the "standard" 2 5/8 inch paper case. Between about 1904 and 1907 our manufacturers phased out offering 1 1/4 ounce loads in the 2 5/8 inch case. From then until WW-II, when the 2 5/8 inch cases disappeared, only 1 1/8 ounce or lighter loads were offered in the 2 5/8 inch case and one had to go to the 2 3/4 inch or longer cases for the 1 1/4 ounce loads.

A.H. Fox Gun Co. didn't mark the chamber length on their guns, until the Super-Fox doubles made for the 3-inch progressive burning powder high velocity loads such as Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X came along in the mid-1920s. Then those Super-Fox guns made for the 3-inch shell were marked 3 IN. on the barrel flats.



FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914.



They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. The SAAMI meeting where it was suggested that manufacturers begin marking the chamber length on their guns was in 1937. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues, and by late 1938 or 1939 they began marking the guns like this --



All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers.

If you are looking at serial number 1323, the pictures Ed1 posted certainly don't tell us anything.

[OH Osthaus]

if it were a factory 3" - wouldn't the card say most likely say so?

[Researcher]

Yes, but there are only about ten production cards surviving below 9600. Several of my Cards of the Month have been for guns ordered chambered for long shells -- October and November 2011, April 2012, February and November 2013.

Sure would be nice to find one of these long chambered guns with its original hang-tag. Likewise would be nice to find some Super-Fox hang-tags.