Newby looking for CE enlightenment

MaxandWill · Post by **MaxandWill** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:32 pm

Gentlemen,
I've always wanted to add a High condition 100% unmessed with graded Fox to my Parkers in the safe.

I figure my first Fox would be an AE or CE.
I suspect I am not alone here in having seen this post for this seemingly nice CE 16.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail ... ng=cid=118

I would appreciate hearing opinions on this gun from those in the know.
What's a fair price on a high condition CE 16 ?

Thanks very much.

mike campbell · Post by **mike campbell** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:37 pm

Beautiful gun. If you buy her, make sure she gets her own safe. Foxes don't like sharing confined spaces with Parkers.

Post by **fox-admin** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:23 pm

It appears to be a very nice gun from the pictures. Beavertail Foxes of that era are rare, I don't think I have ever seen one that lettered, but never say never. Also I have never seen a Fox with the barrel flats jeweled, cross hatched yes but never jeweled. But never say never. If I was consider this gun I would buy an airplane ticket and go take a look. Good luck. The price seems in line with the current market for a 16ga C.

fullchoke16 · Post by **fullchoke16** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:26 pm

For that kind of money, I'd just as soon have Galazan build me a new one.

MaxandWill · Post by **MaxandWill** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:36 pm

I appreciate the opinions.

Regarding the "uniqueness" of the Forend and the jeweled flats are there records such as with the Parkers to verify if this is factory work or aftermarket add on's?

Thanks!

Post by **fox-admin** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:53 pm

I would buy it if that is what you want contingent upon a factory letter.

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:09 pm

Max, yes there are letters of provenance. Someone will reply with that information. Going to visit the gun with the letter in hand is good advice. Where would you be arriving from? In today's market, maybe a house or car would be included in the price. However, to be fair, if the gun were for real, the price may not be too far off.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:58 pm

Here's a pic of the flats and cocking slide from a 12 gauge CE, 1927-28 vintage. I believe the jeweling to be original but if not it's been there for a long time. The jeweling looks quite similar to that on the 16 gauge CE referenced here. Also a pic of the barrel breeches showing "scraper marks" on the same 12 gauge gun. The scrape marks are on both barrels but the camera lighting hides them on the barrel to the left in the pic. Maybe the jeweling and/or scraping were done for special customers? Silvers

jolly bill · Post by **jolly bill** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:16 am

"Fox gun CE grade with serial number 303164 had 28 inch barrels choked Improved Cylinder and Modified. The stock had a length of pull of 14 1/2", half pistol grip and drop at heel of 2 5/8".
The gun had a semi beaver tail fore end. The gun was also equipped with double triggers. No weight listed for the gun.
The gun was shipped to Bamberger, January 17, 1935. No address was listed for the consignee."
From Roe Clark letter dated August 3, 1987 to me.

I used to own gun with serial number 303164 but I sold it about 12 years ago. Maybe a little longer than that. It was a very nice gun. And according to my notes, it had most of its case colors but I don't think 95+% case colors as stated in the listings description, but it did have about 98% blue and 95% wood finish. It had a leather covered recoil pad.

I don't recall it having that much engine turning on the barrel flats and cocking slide.

The barrels were marked with the Utica address.

Also noted in Roe Clarks letter on the gun, was a second set of 26" barrels. When I purchased the gun, it just had the 28" set. And no markings or other clues on those barrels that might have reflected a second set.

To give you and idea of how well nice Fox's appreciate in value, I sold it about 12 years or so ago for $1250.00.

Hope some of this helps.

Bill Jolliff

I do not have any detailed photos of the gun. Wish I had.

MaxandWill · Post by **MaxandWill** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:48 am

Bill, Great details. Thank you.

So other than the jewelling on the flats the gun appears correct. Correct?

I do find myself focusing on the Case colors. A Parker I can spot factory color or not ten feet away but these Fox's of yours are a different animal.

The case colors seem a bit "proud" but again I don't know Fox colors well enough and certainly not from a photo. Based on Bill's recollections I can't imagine anyone would mess around with that much existing case color?
I could see someone "refreshing" the flats.

Then comes the obvious question. If the gun is in fact as it's represented by the seller then why would it have not attracted a knowledgeable buyer already?
Price, Skepticism??

Or have I likely cast enough attention to it to find it sold when I ring the seller to discuss it this morning ? If so better than not doing my homework and having a costly regret in the safe.

Thanks again.

MARSHFELLOW · Post by **MARSHFELLOW** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:01 am

Silvers, KNOCK OUT PIX!!!! I have seen the breech face "scraping" on grades from plain Sterlingworths on up...both Philly and Utica. I dont recall owning or handling a Fox with engine turned "jeweled flats" like the aforementioned CE.

This CE in question currently has a hand engraved barrel address...I personally have not seen other CE's with that embellishment.

The beavertail has a definate Utica look to it....although I've never seen a Philly Beavertail to compare.

Gee Jolly Bill......we're Buds.....I woulda given ya $1,500!

Post by **fox-admin** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:52 am

Bill indicated the gun had a Utica address when he owned it, the listing says Philadelphia. The barrel address is now hand engraved (per Marshfellow) and the flat jeweling looks mint. Makes me wonder. Also the barrel flats have the Savage inspectors mark (star). Also, Silvers your barrels have the Savage mark, maybe your barrels were back to Savage and were jeweled at that time? I could be totally wrong

eightbore · Post by **eightbore** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:24 am

Obviously, the gun has been doctored in the barrel department since Bill owned it. That should take it out of the $16,500 category. By the way, I have a Parker order in my files for Allen Bromberger (or Bomberger, or Bomherger, not sure), Brummerville, PA. Maybe Callahan could take another look at the name. Those Fox cards are sometimes hard to read accurately.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:12 pm

Fox Admin, when you say the star mark do you mean the 4-pointed stamp that's just above the cocking slide? I assumed that was an inspector mark but I never heard it is connected with Savage. The barrels on this CE gun have the standard Chromox steel and A H Fox Philly address markings. No 2-3/4" chamber marking like Savage stamped on early guns they worked on. However I don't know when that practice began.

Humm... I checked two Savage manufactured guns and neither one has a star mark. Just wondering, is there a reference that ties the star with work done at the Utica factory? Silvers

jolly bill · Post by **jolly bill** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:29 pm

First, I have to beg forgiveness for my lack of good memory, only with respect to the price I sold the gun for.

I acquired the gun in June of 1987 and that I paid $1250.00 for it then. That's where the $1250.00 came from in my above note.

I sold it 12 to 14 years ago for about $4800.00. So Marshfellow, that should make you feel a little bit better. I probably coulda' traded it for a Ford truck or something from ya.

So my apologies for my aforementioned incorrect selling price.

Some say that memory is the 2nd thing to go when you get older, I don't remember what the 1st thing was.

I believe the seller has a factory letter enroute. Would be nice to hear what IT says.

Eightbore, yes, I think some of the cards may be a little tricky to read. I recall a letter or two that may have mis-spellings, etc.

I think it would be appropriate to not say too much about the gun in a public forum, but if a serious buyer would like to "jiggle" my memory, please send me a note via my email address in my profile.

I'm guessing that would be better. It is/was a very nice gun.

Bill Jolliff