Quick question: loads

[Jeff S]

Every now and then I'm forced to "tip my hand" and admit that I don't know as much as I should. I would like to do more shooting than I have in the past which naturally equates to more shells. I've heard that I should use 9 shot for skeet and 7 1/2 shot for trap and clays. I've also heard that it a good idea to limit yourself to 1 oz. loads with the vintage guns. I've also been advised to use "low pressure". I have found Winchester extra lite and Remington shells with with 1 oz. loads in 7 1/2 and 8's, but I haven't found them in 9's. Are they available? Whenever I shop for shells, the velocity is usually posted on the box, but I never see any mention of "pressure". How do I convert "velocity" to "pressure"? If the advertised velocity is 1200, is it high pressure or low pressure. I know we all like RST shells. Are they all suitable for my old guns, or do I just order the ones with velocity less than 1200? For instance, the "lite" has a velocity of 1150 and appears to be available in 9's. Is that a "safe" choice?

[vaturkey]

RST's are the best IMO because pressures are kept very low and they will tell you what the pressure is for each one of their loads. Winchester won't tell you what their Xtra-Lite loads pressures are. Everytime I've asked I was told that was "proprietary information". I have been told someone sent the AA Xtra-lite loads out for testing and they came in at 8000 PSI, which in my opinion if the gun is in good mechanical shape with good wall thickness etc etc you should be fine. Velocity all by itself doesn't tell one whether a load is low pressure or not. Probably a pretty good indication but far from certain. There are other shells out there besides RST's designed for vintage guns. Polywad is another.

Lots of pressure is just as hard on old wood as old steel. 100 year old stocks can't take that pounding as many are oil soaked etc etc. Anyway, just my opinion.

PS. Winchester makes their AA Xtra-Lite loads in size 9. Here's a link:

http://www.basspro.com/Winchester-AA-Xt ... uct/67996/

[Jeff S]

Good information. Thanks

[Mother ducker]

I tried to research this out to the best of my ability, but I reload. You don't have to spend to much time on hodgdon's reload data site,it's free,to make an assumption that load pressure is common only to the specific load you are dealing with. And Winchester probably won't tell you because it varies greatly on the powder they chose to use that day.

[Stan Hillis]

Good info from vaturkey, but I must diverge from him on one point. I do not accept that higher pressures necessarily hurt the wood on a gun. They can stress the action too much, or burst a weak/thin barrel, but old wood is damaged by excessive recoil, and higher pressure does not necessarily mean higher recoil. The recoil is created by two things, and two things only ............. the weight of the payload (plus the other ejecta), and the velocity at which it travels down bore. Very high pressures can stress the metal, and if it "turns loose" it may break wood, but not otherwise, IMO. High pressures CAN be associated with higher velocities pushing heavier loads (high recoil), but not always. You can have high pressure with a mediocre load at moderate velocity.

RSTs and Polywads are very suitable for these guns, and are entirely suitable for bird hunting and clays.

SRH

[vaturkey]

Good info from vaturkey, but I must diverge from him on one point. I do not accept that higher pressures necessarily hurt the wood on a gun. They can stress the action too much, or burst a weak/thin barrel, but old wood is damaged by excessive recoil, and higher pressure does not necessarily mean higher recoil. The recoil is created by two things, and two things only ............. the weight of the payload (plus the other ejecta), and the velocity at which it travels down bore. Very high pressures can stress the metal, and if it "turns loose" it may break wood, but not otherwise, IMO. High pressures CAN be associated with higher velocities pushing heavier loads (high recoil), but not always. You can have high pressure with a mediocre load at moderate velocity.

RSTs and Polywads are very suitable for these guns, and are entirely suitable for bird hunting and clays.

SRH

Agree 100%. Recoil is driven by velocity and more often then not that equates to increased pressure as well but not always. Good shotshell loading manuals can show some powders that increase pressure in a particular gauge, but don't necessarily increase velocity.

[Twice Barrel]

I've heard that I should use 9 shot for skeet and 7 1/2 shot for trap and clays.

For informal skeet, trap and sporting clays #8 shot is a decent compromise for shot size unless you are shooting handicap trap but it is adequate from the 16 yard line or very long (over 35 yard) target presentations on the clays course.

[Researcher]

From the 1890s to the early 1920s, the heaviest smokeless 12-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered the shooting public were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing a 1 1/4 ounce payload. These loads could be had in the 2 3/4, 2 7/8 or 3-inch paper shells, and there were even some 3 1/4 inch paper shells for bulk powder. Many serious shooters believed the more/better wadding available in the longer cases was an advantage.

I have some old DuPont Smokeless Shotgun Powders books from the late 1920s and early 1930s. These booklets are very lengthy tomes, 96 and 103 pages, promoting their DuPont Oval progressive burning powder, which allowed the development of the high velocity loads like Western's Super-X, Remington's Nitro Express, etc. In the manual they show a table giving the pressure of the 3 1/2 drams DuPont Bulk Smokeless pushing 1 1/4 ounces of #6 shot as 11,700 pounds, with 3 1/2 drams of Schultze 11,800 pounds, and the same load pushed by 28-grains of Ballistite at 12,600 pounds!! Velocities were all given over 40 yards, not the muzzle velocity figures we are use to seeing today. The DuPont bulk gave 943 fps, the Schultze gave 941 fps, and the Ballistite 966 fps. Meanwhile 40 grains of their DuPont Oval gave that 1 1/4 ounce of #6 shot a velocity of 981 fps with a pressure of only 9,400 pounds.

So, one can see that these higher velocity loads, even though the pressure was lower, could over time put more wear and tear on the head of ones stock. "Action develops a equal and opposite reaction" type thing. Doesn't mean my Fox doubles haven't digested a fair number of Super-X or Nitro Express loads over the last 55 years, when I thought the hunting situation called for it. For higher volume shooting at clay targets I've used 7/8 ounce at 1200 fps reloads for the last couple of decades in 12- and 16-gauges and 3/4 ounce in 20-gauge.

Early on, some 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge loads were offered in the 2 5/8 inch paper case, but these seem to have disappeared between 1903 and 1907. After that time the 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells seem to have been limited to 1 or 1 1/8 ounce loads.

Until April 1940, 1 1/4 ounce loads were allowed in American trap shooting. A lot of trap configured guns were digesting these from the late 1920s to WW-II --