Feeding your Fox for waterfowl

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:55 pm

Planning for next season - while on my travels I've been stopping by gunshops, looking for those green Bismuth Cartridge Company boxes. Opening line goes like this..... any of that old bismuth ammo around?

Today I bought a bunch of 3" 12 gauge shells loaded with 1-5/8 ounce of 4's; also some regular 12 gauge with 1-3/8 ounces of BB's.

No, I'm not going to shoot modern "Max dram equivalent" shells in an old Fox duck gun. But the price of the shot I'll reclaim from today's buy works out to about $9.50 per pound. Not bad, I'll end up with custom Fox waterfowl reloads for < $1.00 per shell.

Gents, we don't have too many choices if you want to get out with your Fox when the honkers are coming in. I'm not banking on a new bismuth shot supplier coming on line soon. Are you? Silvers

mike campbell · Post by **mike campbell** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:11 pm

That's a great price! I bought some 3.5" 12ga in #5 for the same reason, but I paid about $24 /lb or about $1.70 per shell in my 16ga.

$42/box sounds outrageous until I factor in all the other costs and find a solo trip to the midwest for pheasants will cost me $1500. Then $80 for ammo doesn't seem so bad.

Calgunner · Post by **Calgunner** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:08 pm

Yikes, $1500 for pheasant?! I don't shoot them very often, but there a lots of them around here. I prefer blue grouse and mountain quail over most other upland hunting. It gets me up into the high country on lovely fall days.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:21 pm

Out of curiosity I've been watching a "lot" of 27 rounds of 12 gauge 3" bismuth shells, #6 shot, on one of the auction sites. The winning bid was $82.01. Going through the math that's about $30.00 per pound not including shipping. Maybe $32-33.00 per pound with shipping? I wonder what that lot would do a month or two before duck season starts? Silvers

mike campbell · Post by **mike campbell** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:27 pm

Calgunner,

$1500 is isn't just for pheasant. That's for a 10-day vacation; me and the dog and 3000 miles round trip with gas at $3.25 /gallon. A couple of 90-minute hunts per day, some sight-seeing, a few rounds of sporting clays, visiting a few gun shops.

Silvers,

I see you bought #4....how do you think those #6 will perform on ducks? At 86% the density of lead, I figured the Bismuth should equate to one size smaller in lead (?). That's why I went with #5 for pheasants; may try to find some #4 for the second barrel.

BTW....this Saturday, the 23rd, is another of RB's registered shoots.
I'd love to see you come in second

If you can't make this one, there's another on March 21 (as well as Batavia Clays). Some people shoot both Good Friday shoots, then Franklinville on Saturday.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:07 am

Mike, I personally wouldn't buy 6 Bismuths for ducks unless they were decoyed and really close, not the type of hunting I get here. But I guess the 6's are better than nothing.... That's why I've been concentrating on finding 4's and 5's for closer birds and 2's for geese. BTW, from what research I've done the 4's are nearer in decimal size to lead 3's and the 2's are really #1 decimal size. The 5 Bismuths are supposedly very close to 5 size lead shot diameter. I'm thinking the old Bismuth Cartridge Company factored in the 86% density when they decided on their decimal sizes to make them comparable in performance to the number size us hunters have used for years.

I haven't duck hunted in many years but it's time to get back into it, hence my searching for old stock Bismuth. I'm hearing a newly developed shot for old doubles is going to be > $3.50 per factory shell this fall. And that's going to be for ~1-1/8 ounce loads. Heavier loads will be more.

I agree with your cost analysis for a decent hunting trip out of the area. Compared with gas, vehicle depreciation, license, hotels, clothing, etc., the cost of shells is insignificant.

I don't think I can make it up to R-B for the February shoot. Thanks for thinking of me. But I was hoping for more like 10th place not second! Frank

DGKaas · Post by **DGKaas** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:40 am

Frank- I've been prowling the stores as well for Bismuth duck loads, you might also check around for Federal Tungsten Polymer if you are 'robbing" shot. Cabela's had quite a few 3" 20 and 3 1/2" 10g on sale for $15 for a box of 10. I bought 48 boxes a few weeks ago. It is a bit brittle but I used it as is (i.e. in factory loads ) to good effect on ducks and geese this season in Canada, Mississippi and Maryland. While I prefer Kent TM, I've used Bismuth for years in my HEs, Parkers, Purdey and M21s and I think your thoughts on #4s or 5s being preferably as an all around duck load are correct. Bismuth #2s will kill and goose ever born within 50-55 yards. We shoot thousands of rounds of Eley Bismuth 7 1/2s at my pigeon club every year and it kills them if you hit them. BTW, "7 1/2" marked Bismuth loads measure 2.6mm or the size of lead #7s

-Don

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:07 pm

Don, thanks much for your reply and advice which I value very much. I just bought 38 boxes of factory Bismuth. Some of it is in 3-1/2" 10 gauge magnum shells which I'll cut down to 2-7/8". The 10 gauge hulls are Remingtons and I since I always liked green and blue colored hulls that will save me a few bucks on buying them from Precision or wherever. A couple of my tight choked 12 gauge Foxes have factory 3" (2-7/8") chambers so the 3-1/2" Bismuth/Eley 12 gauge shells will be candidates for cut back also. I'll keep my eye opened for Kent TM also. Thanks again. Frank

DGKaas · Post by **DGKaas** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:46 pm

My hunting buddy and gunsmith (who shoots Henry Bartholomew's 32" standard frame HE 3" gun as well as a 32" Long Range Speciality Smith and a M21 Duck) and I have shot plenty of Bismuth and TM at waterfowl the past few years. It works well through the old guns in practice as well as theory. Lately he has been experimenting with Niceshot and he is very impressed with its performance. BTW, his pattern testing (and mine) as well as field testing indicates the old Federal Tungsten Polymer patterns well out of our M21 20g 3" Mags as well as out of my 32" #2 frame DH 20g 3" Parker despite urban legends to the contrary. He is on the trail of a 20g 3" HE but it may take some trading to get it!

Knothole · Post by **Knothole** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:43 am

I found RST's web site. They sell non tox shells loaded with NICE shot, $3.00 per shell in 12-16-20-28 gauge, And 1 1/4 ounce in 10 gauge for $4.00 per shell. Thats as little as $ 36.00 a pound calculated for the shot alone, 1 ounce in 12 gauge, even more for less shot weight in the smaller gauges. Shipping adds more $. Largest shot size No 5. Scavenging bismuth seems like a good deal.

loggy · Post by **loggy** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:54 pm

It sounds like there is a gunsmith with the fun meter pegged! I keep trying to assemble a list of Becker serial numbers. "Researcher" has been a lot of help as well as a very informative post by "Foxnut". I know of number 33051 that was a Bartholomew gun with 32 1/2 inch barrels. It is pictured in the 1996 summer dgj but is listed as an HDE with a heavy frame. 33050 was ordered by Bartholomew at the same time for Nash Buckingham. Would it be possible to get the serial number of this gun?

loggy · Post by **loggy** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:19 pm

I hate to post a reply to myself but on reading further in the DGJ article it states 33050 and 33051 factory cards called for 321/2 barrels and heavy frames. The guns were actually made with 32 inch barrels. The frames were number 1 and not the heavier 0 frame They came in at 8 lbs. The article also mention HE gun 32079 that was a duplicate in size to 33051. It was a Bartholomew gun and I assume a Becker gun as well. I will add it to my list unless someone has information to the contrary. Thanks