HE Patterns NONTOX

[dennyibrandt]

I have a nontoxic friend with a 2 3/4" HE. He`s taking it spring goosing{Missouri}. He`s been loading up 2`s and 4`s from BPI and thus far at 40yds is at 60% patterns with his full choke. What is the best patterning 2 3/4" load?...... DEN

[Ithaca33]

I had the best results with nice shot 5's. Using 7625.

[eightbore]

What are his choke constrictions?

[Silvers]

Short answer is: don't expect to buy some factory shells or load up some of your own and see > 80% patterns first off.

Super-Fox guns whether 2-3/4 or 3-IN were designed for high velocity loads of bare lead shot pushed by fiber/card wads and heavy powder charges. Almost all but very late Supers were made/regulated for 1-1/4 and 1-3/8 ounce respectively. Even back in the day the interchange of Super-X, Peters, Ajax etc shells could and would affect that magic 80% number for Supers. Nowadays, dense patterns for long range hunting can be duplicated with modern shot both non-tox and lead, plastic or fiber wads, and heavy powder charges but it takes some experimentation with YOUR gun. I've never tried ITX non-tox shot from BP. But I've been able to work up to 85% patterns with Nice non-tox shot and with hard lead shot (West Coast 2's and 4's) but these are my personal high velocity/pressure loads for individual guns. I'm not talking about pipsqueak loads, nor any that were "tested" by seeing how many pellets made holes in a soda can set out at X paces. Objective testing should be done: pellet counts in the 30" circle and also a 20" center circle at 40 yards. Also by checking penetration in softwood at an extreme of range, like 60 yards. Sorry, I'm not a professional ballistician and I won't share my load recipes except to say that I use IMR 7625 and 4756 single-base shotgun powders that are supposed to be discontinued in 2014. Loading data from older shotshell loading books can give you a good start. A good reference for anyone owning a Super-Fox etc is the 1929 book Modern Shotguns and Loads by Charles Askins. Askins did plenty of patterning of Supers and other contemporary long range guns, and the charts and info in his book are fascinating and will give you a good base for modern load development. Vintage copies can often be found on E Bay and there is a recent reprint but if it were me I'd hold out for an original copy.

Just offhand I can think of > a dozen gents on the site who regularly hunt with Supers and maybe some of them will take the time to reply with their perspectives? Anyone with a Super or lusting for one would do well to stop by one of the AFHCA events where usually there are members hanging out and sharing info on these wonderful guns. And in particular our upcoming 7th annual Bo-Whoop Long Range shoot held in conjuction with the Northeast Side by Side Classic at Hidden Hollow SC in Pennsylvania (June 6-8 this year) is a good place to see many Supers in action and perhaps even to handle, shoot and buy one. More info on the B-W LR Shoot and our other NE SxS competitions will be passed on the site as the time gets closer.

Silvers

[dennyibrandt]

Wow!!!!! I think I need an HE. Perhaps there are grants available for these needs. Talked to Mr Nontox and he got out his digital caliper with apologies for its accuracy....Right barrel .701....Left barrel .683...{ 32"}........ So if a person did go east to shoot a Fox..... is there one event which stands out as having the most interesting and challenging targets???.....DEN

[Silvers]

DEN, my edit and your reply crossed in cyberspace. See my edit comments on the Fox Collectors Bo-Whoop Long Range Shoot.

http://hhhsc.net/

[Jim Cloninger]

I patterned my HE a few years back with factory bismuth. My HE was made in 1923, 3" chambers with .048/.052 chokes. I patterened at 40 yds. and counted holes in a 30 inch circle.
Results:
1) 3" bismuth 1 5/8 oz #4 76%/76%
2) 3" bismuth 1 5/8 oz #5 75%/75%
3) 2 3/4" bismuth 1 3/8 oz #4 66%/74%
4) 2 3/4" bismuth 1 3/8 oz #5 74%/86%
5) 2 3/4" bismuth 1 1/4 oz #4 79%/80%

Jim

[Silvers]

Anyone interested in long range patterning of Supers etc might get one of these template gizmos made up. Made of 1/16" butyrate by a friend in the plastics biz who has a laser cutter - but a template could be made by a careful craftsman with a jig saw. Sorry for the lack of contrast on the carpeting but the template is transparent. I've put on a piece of blue tape to show the difference between the 30" diameter outer circle, and a 20" diameter inner one that's particularly useful to check for a so-called "hot center" (pellet density in the center 20" circle versus in the larger/standard 30" circle). That blue tape is 5" long.

In practice you place a mark on your patterning paper at the normal 40 yards, shoot at the mark with gun held to the shoulder in normal position, then overlay and center the template over the BULK of the pellet pattern. That's why the transparent template is important. Use a table and draw the two circles with a pencil. Then you can see the center of the pattern versus your aiming point, and how far your point of impact deviates from point of aim. Using a Super-Fox or something like an thaca Super 10 - I'll normally just count the pellets that missed the 30" circle and subtract from the average number of pellets in the shell (less counting). Then do the math for pattern percentage. You should do a "composite" of 3 or better yet 5 shots and average to get a good count - owing to an aberrant shot that might produce a random high/low count for some reason. Trying to determine pattern percentage with only one shot will often give an erroneous % number.

For our long range experimenters .........

[dennyibrandt]

Here are recent results of more HE testing; 2 3/4", BB shot size, 66 pellets/load, 34 grains of Alliant steel, Multimetal cupwad shortened [with 120 degree vertical slits], 40yds, 55-60 pellets in 30" circle......83%-91% pattern. Other loads and shot sizes did not come close to this percentage. Penetration results @ 40yds [book]; BB steel 171 pages with smooth channels, ITX10 BB 147 pages with ragged channels, #2 ITX10 237 pages, #4 ITX10 150 pages, #5 Tungsten Matrix 131 pages. Hopefully these shots have not been fired in vain !...........DEN