Question regarding serial numbers for early 16ga A.H. Fox

[Andrew LB]

Hi everyone. I've been doing some research on two shotguns passed down to me and had a few questions. The first has to do with my 16ga which I knew was an early gun, but when looking at the serial number database found here: http://doublegunshop.com/dgsnos1.htm it lists the first 16 gauge A.H. Fox shotgun's serial number as being 300,075. The gun I own has a serial number of 300,103. So if i'm reading this correctly, my gun was made in 1912 and is the 28th A.H. Fox 16 gauge EVER produced for public consumption?? The beads on this gun are what look like ivory and to my surprise it even has selective ejectors. It's also a BE-grade.
The shotgun was my fathers, and my grandfathers before him, so I have a pretty good idea of what's been done to it. The gun did get worked on about 40 years ago by a gunsmith here in LA by the name Jewels Lebanchne (i probably butchered the name), who refinished the furniture and cleaned all the internals. My father said he was the best guy he knew of in SoCal at the time, and I found it funny that he told my him when dropping the gun off to "Call me in a year".
Here is a photo I took of the gun yesterday when i started this account.

Here's a shot of it.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... g~original

I've got a second Fox as well. A much later Savage-Fox in 20-gauge and like the other, it's a BE-grade. I don't have the serial but here is a photo. It's one of the heaviest double guns i've held. I can't imaging how much the 12-gauge would weigh.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... g~original


Edit/
Hmm... I over-sharpened that photograph.

[SmithShady]

Hi Andrew, and welcome to the forum. The first gun you have shown there is quite nice, and we'd love to hear more about it. What length are your barrels, and do you know how it's choked? It would be worth joining the Members Section of this website and submitting a request for an order card lookup. The AHFCA has the original order cards that show the configuration of the gun when it left the factory, who it was shipped too, etc. The $30 fee to join the site includes a free card lookup, as well as a wealth of information on these guns not available in the non-member sections. It would be interesting to see if the beavertail forearm on the gun is original, or perhaps you know already since this is a family gun? I know regardless, we'd all like to see some more pictures of the gun if you have any. You don't see 16ga BE's in this configuration very often.

The second gun you have listed is not an "A.H. Fox" shotgun, but a later Savage creation, and not something that get's discussed much on this forum. For some additional information on this gun, I'd check out this post which has some great information provided by Researcher. http://foxcollectors.com/My%20Forum/php ... bse#p27803

Similarly, there is some discussion on the chronology (serialization) of Fox guns available here. http://foxcollectors.com/My%20Forum/php ... ion#p24956

Mike

[Andrew LB]

Hi Andrew, and welcome to the forum. The first gun you have shown there is quite nice, and we'd love to hear more about it. What length are your barrels,

They're 28" Krupp Fluid Steel. On the underside each barrel has a "3" which I assume is the weight, along with "Fluid-Steel-Krupp-Essen". The forearm loop is the F.T. Russell style snap-on/off variety, the center rib that goes between the barrel's is there and the serial and patents are on the metal section. If the wood was replaced on the forearm it would have been done by my grandfather, and whoever made it did a fantastic job. The engraved medallion thing looks legit as well.

and do you know how it's choked?

I think it's modified/full. I can find out for sure tomorrow.

It would be worth joining the Members Section of this website and submitting a request for an order card lookup. The AHFCA has the original order cards that show the configuration of the gun when it left the factory, who it was shipped too, etc. The $30 fee to join the site includes a free card lookup, as well as a wealth of information on these guns not available in the non-member sections.

I'll definitely be doing that. Probably later this week. It would be great to have that info, plus my father would love to see it.

It would be interesting to see if the beavertail forearm on the gun is original, or perhaps you know already since this is a family gun?

My grandfather bought it in the 30's for what i'm told was $40. Hunted a decent amount for a few years until signing up for the U.S. Army Air Corps, spent a couple years bombing Jerry in a B24 Liberator, and gave the gun to my father (born in '43) when he was 16.

I know regardless, we'd all like to see some more pictures of the gun if you have any. You don't see 16ga BE's in this configuration very often.

Ask and you shall receive...

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... g~original
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... g~original
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... g~original
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... g~original
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... g~original


I can take some additional photos of the gun tomorrow when I have enough light. Any requests?

[Silvers]

That chart is often misinterpreted. 300075 is the estimated LAST gun produced in 1912, not the first one which was 300001. But it's fact that Fox did not ship guns in exact s/n sequence. A factory letter is the only way to know for sure. Alternately, a shipping date is usually but not always shown on the front side of the card copy available to members of the AHFCA. IMO the beavertail forend is undoubtedly a replacement. For reference that was: Jules La Bantchni, Olympic Custom Guns, 2202 Pico Ave in Santa Monica. Thanks for posting. A great family gun.

[Researcher]

Looks like the stocker who did the beavertail forearm did a pretty good job of duplicating a Savage-Era Ansley H. Fox beavertail shape and checkering pattern.

Like I said on Shotgunworld.com -- Your right that Ansley H. Fox doubles in 16-gauge (and 20-gauge) were first shipped in 1912, though they were shown in the A.H. Fox Gun Company tent at the 1911 Grand American Handicap. There was very likely a prototype serial number 300000, and regular production of graded 16-gauge guns began with 300001. I've seen and handled 300002, and I've recorded data provided by the owners on 300004 (C), 300030 (CE), 300033 (A), 300058 (A), 300059 (A) and 300061 (C). Tom Kidd did an article on the 20-gauge prototype 200000 in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Six, Issue 1.

[Andrew LB]

That chart is often misinterpreted. 300075 is the estimated LAST gun produced in 1912, not the first one which was 300001. But it's fact that Fox did not ship guns in exact s/n sequence. A factory letter is the only way to know for sure. Alternately, a shipping date is usually but not always shown on the front side of the card copy available to members of the AHFCA.

Thanks for straightening that out. I'll definitely be sending cash for that info.

IMO the beavertail forend is undoubtedly a replacement.

Yea. I just called my father and it turns out my grandfather broke the forearm back prior to 1950 and the replacement seen on the gun was custom made by Pachmayr.

For reference that was: Jules La Bantchni, Olympic Custom Guns, 2202 Pico Ave in Santa Monica.

So that's how you spell his name! I've looked all over and my searches always came up empty. I remember he passed back in the early 80's when I was really young. Jules was the only guy my dad would take his guns to. He did fantastic work.

Thanks for posting. A great family gun.

Thanks. Now that I know it's not all original, I wont feel so bad taking it out for upland game. This 16 is so light in your hands compared to anything i've owned. My other favorite shooter is my 1920's Browning Auto-5 in 16-gauge. It's a great duck gun and being full choke... you really have to be spot on.

[Fin2Feather]

Nothing like a 16ga Fox. Enjoy it!