Case color examples early bone and charcoal vs cyanide

[fox-admin]

Her are a couple of good eamaples of original Fox case coloring on Sterlingworths.
The first picture is a 1910 Sterlingworth with bone and charcoal colors.
The second picture is a 1925 Sterlingworth with cyanide colors.


As Researcher says share the knowledge. Enjoy Craig Larter

[Researcher]

Here are some Savage era Fox-Sterlingworths, two showing what I refer to as the "mountain ranges" colors and the middle gun show in colors similar to those on Craig's later Philadelphia gun --





Here is a pretty crisp A-Grade from 1920 that shows the early cyanide colors --

[Silvers]

An example of charcoal pack cc on a second year A-Grade ..... "oil sheen on water".

[jolly bill]

Great examples on some really nice guns. How about the condition of Craigs/fox-admin's The Sterlingworth Co. gun. WOW!

Thanks for showing us the difference.

Jolly

[xewizzard]

Thank you guys for the education via your excellent pictures. Guns in that condition set the standard for collecting.

[MARSHFELLOW]

.....nice pics fellas. So when do "we" think that they switched over to cyanide colors???

tjw

[fox-admin]

Here is an A Grade from Philadelphia late period, the colors are the same as the late Sterlingworth example in my first post. The engraving subdues the color a little.




A couple more pictures to compare.




Marshfellow asks a good question. From my observations I would say the CC changes right around 1913 when the engraving changed. There is a large group of guns from the late teens and early 20's that have very muted CC, like Daves example above and the BE below serial number 24XXX. Just my opinion. Craig

[eightbore]

The "muted" character is caused by the high percentage of stippled background. I doubt that the colors on the B would be "muted" except for the stippling. Frank, can we see the sides of the early A? Thanks.

[Silvers]

Sorry Bill, the real early A grade isn't readily available for pictures. She has s/n 13xx, straight grip stock with high dimensions, and a pretty nice stick of wood. Probably ordered for live birds. The cc can be seen on one side of the frame in this file shot. Best I can do until I'm at where she's stored.

[MARSHFELLOW]

....more nice pics fellas.

Craig, I agree, seems there was a time when the colors were indeed very "muted". I have seen/have some great guns with very little use with case color more like greys/putty/lt blue. Even the watertable has these muted tones where we are used to seeing strong color from being hidden. I have seen several guns right from around 1917 with this characteristic.

tjw

[fox-admin]

Here is a picture illustrating the muted case color---gun on the left circa 1917 versus the late 20's gun on the right.
As Marshfellow indicated many Fox collectors have seen examples from this time period with the muted colors.

[vaturkey]

Bill,

Here's a really early AE circa 1911:







Regards, Tom

[mike campbell]

Here is a picture illustrating the muted case color---gun on the left circa 1917 versus the late 20's gun on the right.
As Marshfellow indicated many Fox collectors have seen examples from this time period with the muted colors.

Craig,

That appears to be charcoal on the left (1917?) and cyanide on the right. Is that correct?

[fox-admin]

Mike: I am really not sure. The colors from 1917 era guns are different from the early bone and charcoal colors(oil on water -kinda thin like Parker colors) and the later guns. Not sure if the steel forgings had less or more chromium or what caused the muted colors (temperatures, % of ingredients???). I should take examples to Doug Turnbull and ask for his opinion. Anyone have any opinions they would like to share???

[Silvers]

There were (and are) many variables that affect "the look" coming out of either case hardening process.

The colors achieved by the charcoal pack process resulted from the type of steel being treated, i.e., low or mild carbon or alloy steel. Also the primary components of the pack could be adjusted, and the addition of traces of certain chemical compounds could and would enhance the blue/yellow/red/etc colors. Pyrometers were primitive by modern standards and temperature variations also came into play. The quenching process was also a critical variable to achieve the look. Lastly, while I'm sure there were SOP's in place, how many different operators were doing the "cooking" over the years that the pack hardening process was used?

The so-called cyanide process was also adjusted over time. It is often assumed that 100% pure reagent grade KCN was used in all cases and in fact that is incorrect. The much cheaper technical grade cyanide was surely used and each batch contained some different impurities. Trace chemical compounds were also added to enhance certain colors. Also, the wavy look of the later Savage SW frames in particular suggests that a mechanized/timed conveyor was implemented at some date, to immerse the frames into the molten bath at about 1175 ^F and probably to quench them afterwards. The frames were probably done more/less manually before that.

Net, I believe there were numerous changes in both basic processes that blur the looks achieved from either one. Frank