So... with at least a couple of people commenting on the lack of engraving skills from the Fox factory, most Parkers are in the same boat... what insights can you give me?
Don't get me wrong, I love the Fox guns, own plenty, will own more, but have to agree that some/much of the engraving is rough.
Early engravers are an interest to me, many in certain areas did work for several companies. I can prove that. In fact, several companies obviously shipped guns or actions a fair amount of distance when called for. At least as far from Phil. I'm sure that there were some apprentices trained by some of the notables, there is not much written about them. Lots of links between any of the manufacturers within 100 miles of Syracuse and others on the east coast. Makes me chuckle when some say that a particular maker had the best engraving when it was often the same people doing the work on several guns during the era. Why do you think that the Fox guns were not 'farmed' out or were they... more commonly than I thought?
My own thoughts tell me that they fell under the one man rule/training, Gough, as did Ithaca with McGraw. Any insights to the early Fox engravers? Where they went?
Without going into large amounts of details, I've been considering doing an article about early 'American company' engravers. Many were recent immigrants and difficult to track.
So feel free to bash me, comment, add insight/thoughts.... whatever, I have a thick skin.
Thanks for your comments, feel free to pm me.
Fox engravers
Mainly from the US Census...
In 1900 besides his wife, there was his brother Harold, then 9 years old. Harold later married and raised 2 children while working as a machinist in Philedelphia.
The 1904 Meriden City directory shows John and William Gough as a contractors for Parker Bros.
It has a strange reference "See Goffe" which refers to one Lucius Goffe.
This makes no sense to me because in 1900 he was 63 years old and listed as a Grocer Merchant. Perhaps they had a shop setup on his property?
In the 1910 Census records.
John Gough, age 36, immigrated 1886 from England, not a US citizen. George Masters, age 24, immigrated 1909 from England.
Both were boarders at 85 Colony St, Meriden.
In 1910 John Gough did not have his wife Agnes with him. She was residing with him in 1900, 1920 and 1930.
John Gough remained an engraver working in Meriden. He never owned a home nor had any children.
George Masters may have returned to England, as I can not find any further trace of him.
William Gough, age 25, shows up in the 1900 census, married with 4 children.
1900 in Meriden:
William, 25
Carrie, 25
Irving J, 3
Leaphy C, 1
Charles H, 2 months
Dorris M, 11 step-sister
1920 in Philadelphia:
William H, 46
Carrie, 46
(Irving crossed out and over it written) Alfred, age 17
A. Gough is Alfred Gough, the son of William. In 1920 at the age of 17, he is living with his parents, William and Carrie on 16th Street in Philidelphia, and lists his occupation the same as dad, gun worker.
Some add'l info on William H. Gough re: Aubrey Gun engraving
From 'Colt Engraving' by RL Wilson.pg 425
In an article published in a Utica NY newspaper 8/29/1954,,states in part that Wm Gough ....."took commissions in special engraving jobs from many parts of the country. There he worked on engravings for Aubrey Guns, then manufactured by Sears Roebuck Co., for guns turned out by Norwich Arms Corp. and Hollenbeck guns, manufactured in Virgina."
The article is refering to a time when Gough was set up in Philadelpia as engraver for AH Fox. The Colt book lists his engraving time for Colt as approx 1910-1940. It also quotes a fellow engraver that worked for Gough that he did some work for Remington.
Pete
In 1900 besides his wife, there was his brother Harold, then 9 years old. Harold later married and raised 2 children while working as a machinist in Philedelphia.
The 1904 Meriden City directory shows John and William Gough as a contractors for Parker Bros.
It has a strange reference "See Goffe" which refers to one Lucius Goffe.
This makes no sense to me because in 1900 he was 63 years old and listed as a Grocer Merchant. Perhaps they had a shop setup on his property?
In the 1910 Census records.
John Gough, age 36, immigrated 1886 from England, not a US citizen. George Masters, age 24, immigrated 1909 from England.
Both were boarders at 85 Colony St, Meriden.
In 1910 John Gough did not have his wife Agnes with him. She was residing with him in 1900, 1920 and 1930.
John Gough remained an engraver working in Meriden. He never owned a home nor had any children.
George Masters may have returned to England, as I can not find any further trace of him.
William Gough, age 25, shows up in the 1900 census, married with 4 children.
1900 in Meriden:
William, 25
Carrie, 25
Irving J, 3
Leaphy C, 1
Charles H, 2 months
Dorris M, 11 step-sister
1920 in Philadelphia:
William H, 46
Carrie, 46
(Irving crossed out and over it written) Alfred, age 17
A. Gough is Alfred Gough, the son of William. In 1920 at the age of 17, he is living with his parents, William and Carrie on 16th Street in Philidelphia, and lists his occupation the same as dad, gun worker.
Some add'l info on William H. Gough re: Aubrey Gun engraving
From 'Colt Engraving' by RL Wilson.pg 425
In an article published in a Utica NY newspaper 8/29/1954,,states in part that Wm Gough ....."took commissions in special engraving jobs from many parts of the country. There he worked on engravings for Aubrey Guns, then manufactured by Sears Roebuck Co., for guns turned out by Norwich Arms Corp. and Hollenbeck guns, manufactured in Virgina."
The article is refering to a time when Gough was set up in Philadelpia as engraver for AH Fox. The Colt book lists his engraving time for Colt as approx 1910-1940. It also quotes a fellow engraver that worked for Gough that he did some work for Remington.
Pete
Thanks for your time and effort Pete.
Most of my research has not involved the Fox guns, but I would be very interested in the engravers involved with the early guns and what happened to them.
My personal Fox interest actually lies in the smallbores. FWIW... I do think that the Fox guns are "one of the finest" made, simple, reliable, lightweight, and the perfect game gun. Actually, smallbore 'B's' are my favorites.
Again, if I offended anyone with the way I wrote the inquiry, I apologize. It probably was not worded well. I'm not a writer. Any given makers high grades show much brilliance when it comes to the engraving, lower grades vary... what I wonder, is if a Loy or Glahn had been brought in, would it have made a difference today? CMSC seems to be doing well, Sterlingworths have hit an all time high, and upgraded smallbore Fox's seem to be a popular project. This leads me to believe that the design has passed the test of time, yet that people want a little more.
My thanks to anyone who chooses to contemplate these thoughts.
Most of my research has not involved the Fox guns, but I would be very interested in the engravers involved with the early guns and what happened to them.
My personal Fox interest actually lies in the smallbores. FWIW... I do think that the Fox guns are "one of the finest" made, simple, reliable, lightweight, and the perfect game gun. Actually, smallbore 'B's' are my favorites.
Again, if I offended anyone with the way I wrote the inquiry, I apologize. It probably was not worded well. I'm not a writer. Any given makers high grades show much brilliance when it comes to the engraving, lower grades vary... what I wonder, is if a Loy or Glahn had been brought in, would it have made a difference today? CMSC seems to be doing well, Sterlingworths have hit an all time high, and upgraded smallbore Fox's seem to be a popular project. This leads me to believe that the design has passed the test of time, yet that people want a little more.
My thanks to anyone who chooses to contemplate these thoughts.