Shotshells for CE grade w/ Krupp 3 weight bbls
Shotshells for CE grade w/ Krupp 3 weight bbls
Is there any requirement to shoot low pressure shotshells in the Krupp barrels. My gun is 1911 and it is my understanding these barrels are proofed at and beyond even today's hot loads. What do y'all shot? Thanks!
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Big Friend Ten
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Re: Shotshells for CE grade w/ Krupp 3 weight bbls
The barrels, if not reamed too thin, should fine with today's SAAMI loads. The action may loosen over time and the stock will likely crack in much shorter time.
Most of us who collect and shoot vintage side by sides understand that while we do own these guns that we will someday pass them on to the next generation of shooters. That makes us essentially caretakers of pieces of history. Understanding that, 99% of collectors of these historical firearms shoot low pressure loads. Shooting 6000 PSI loads instead of the SAAMI mean working pressure loads of 11,500 PSI, our prized AH Fox guns, along with Parkers, Smiths, Lefevers, Ithacas and so on with last virtually forever.
It is your gun and your choice.
Mark
Most of us who collect and shoot vintage side by sides understand that while we do own these guns that we will someday pass them on to the next generation of shooters. That makes us essentially caretakers of pieces of history. Understanding that, 99% of collectors of these historical firearms shoot low pressure loads. Shooting 6000 PSI loads instead of the SAAMI mean working pressure loads of 11,500 PSI, our prized AH Fox guns, along with Parkers, Smiths, Lefevers, Ithacas and so on with last virtually forever.
It is your gun and your choice.
Mark
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Re: Shotshells for CE grade w/ Krupp 3 weight bbls
For over 45 years now, I've been shooting all manner of 2 3/4 inch factory loads, up to the 1 1/4 ounce, 3 3/4 dram equiv. Western Super-X/Winchester Super-Speed/Remington Nitro Express/Federal Hi-Power type lead loads, in a 1914-vintage, 3-weight, Krupp barrel, 12-gauge, A-Grade. Normally a 3 dram equiv. 1 1/8 ounce Trap load in the right (IC) barrel and the heavier load in the left (IM) barrel. That is miles of walking and very few shots being fired. For higher volume, clay target shooting, I stick to pretty light, 7/8 ounce, 1200 fps, 6300 psi, handloads. I don't know, and have never seen, your gun, so can't say over the internet what loads may or may not be suitable in it. I can just say what I've done.
FOX-PROOF – The A.H. Fox Gun Co. started hyping the Fox-Proof along about 1910 in their magazine ads, and 1908 in their catalogues. The text in the 1911 "Campfire" catalogue states "If you own a genuine A.H. Fox Gun it has been proved in accordance with the requirements of the European Government Proof Houses, which means an enormous overcharge has been fired in each barrel, and is another evidence of the great effort we make to give our patrons guns that are safe and perfect in material and workmanship. Certificate of proof is attached to every A.H. Fox Gun."
That first sentence would buckle the knees of old Al Joseph of The Industrial Writing Institute!!!
Interesting that here in 1911 they were calling it the A.H. Fox Gun. Back in 1905, 6, and 7, their magazine ads went to great length to identify their product as the Ansley H. Fox Gun. The Philadelphia Arms Co. was making the A.H. Fox Gun!!!
I just happen to have one of these cream color tags. On the front it has a blue ribbon with a red seal of the FOX-PROOF in the middle. In red letters at the top it says "Protect Yourself" and below the seal it says "Buy a Fox Proved & Tested Gun." On the back it says "This is to certify that barrels, and all parts of A.H. Fox Gun Serial No._________ have been tested and shot with excessive overcharge in accordance with the abnormal test required by European Government Proof Houses."
"The "FOX PROOF" is another evidence of the great effort we make to insure our patrons guns that are safe and perfect in material and workmanship."
The separate page about the Fox-Proof is in the 1908, (I don't have a 1909 or 1910, but I suppose it is there) 1911, 1912, 1913 and 1914 catalogues. After that, mention of the overload charge is in the general description section.
FOX CHAMBERS --
The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.
All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.
In addition to chamber lengths, the 1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue also included recommended loads. They are definately on the light side --
Up until the introduction of progressive burning powder in Western Cartridge Co.'s revolutionary Super-X loads in 1922, the heaviest 12-gauge loads being offered by the North American ammunition companies was 1 1/4 ounces of shot pushed by 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Ballistite or Infallible. I've now scored some old DuPont Smokeless Shotgun Powders books from the late 1920s and early 1930s. These booklets are very lengthy tomes, 96 and 103 pages, promoting their DuPont Oval progressive burning powder, which allowed the development of the high velocity loads like Western's Super-X, Remington's Nitro Express, etc. In the manual they show a table giving the pressure of the 3 1/2 drams DuPont Bulk Smokeless pushing 1 1/4 ounces of #6 shot as 11,700 pounds, with 3 1/2 drams of Schultze 11,800 pounds, and the same load pushed by 28-grains of Ballistite at 12,600 pounds!! Velocities were all given over 40 yards, not the muzzle velocity figures we are use to seeing today. The DuPont bulk gave 943 fps, the Schultze gave 941 fps, and the Ballistite 966 fps. Meanwhile 40 grains of their DuPont Oval gave that 1 1/4 ounce of #6 shot a velocity of 981 fps with a pressure of only 9,400 pounds.
FOX-PROOF – The A.H. Fox Gun Co. started hyping the Fox-Proof along about 1910 in their magazine ads, and 1908 in their catalogues. The text in the 1911 "Campfire" catalogue states "If you own a genuine A.H. Fox Gun it has been proved in accordance with the requirements of the European Government Proof Houses, which means an enormous overcharge has been fired in each barrel, and is another evidence of the great effort we make to give our patrons guns that are safe and perfect in material and workmanship. Certificate of proof is attached to every A.H. Fox Gun."
That first sentence would buckle the knees of old Al Joseph of The Industrial Writing Institute!!!
Interesting that here in 1911 they were calling it the A.H. Fox Gun. Back in 1905, 6, and 7, their magazine ads went to great length to identify their product as the Ansley H. Fox Gun. The Philadelphia Arms Co. was making the A.H. Fox Gun!!!
I just happen to have one of these cream color tags. On the front it has a blue ribbon with a red seal of the FOX-PROOF in the middle. In red letters at the top it says "Protect Yourself" and below the seal it says "Buy a Fox Proved & Tested Gun." On the back it says "This is to certify that barrels, and all parts of A.H. Fox Gun Serial No._________ have been tested and shot with excessive overcharge in accordance with the abnormal test required by European Government Proof Houses."
"The "FOX PROOF" is another evidence of the great effort we make to insure our patrons guns that are safe and perfect in material and workmanship."
The separate page about the Fox-Proof is in the 1908, (I don't have a 1909 or 1910, but I suppose it is there) 1911, 1912, 1913 and 1914 catalogues. After that, mention of the overload charge is in the general description section.
FOX CHAMBERS --
The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.
All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.
In addition to chamber lengths, the 1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue also included recommended loads. They are definately on the light side --
Up until the introduction of progressive burning powder in Western Cartridge Co.'s revolutionary Super-X loads in 1922, the heaviest 12-gauge loads being offered by the North American ammunition companies was 1 1/4 ounces of shot pushed by 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Ballistite or Infallible. I've now scored some old DuPont Smokeless Shotgun Powders books from the late 1920s and early 1930s. These booklets are very lengthy tomes, 96 and 103 pages, promoting their DuPont Oval progressive burning powder, which allowed the development of the high velocity loads like Western's Super-X, Remington's Nitro Express, etc. In the manual they show a table giving the pressure of the 3 1/2 drams DuPont Bulk Smokeless pushing 1 1/4 ounces of #6 shot as 11,700 pounds, with 3 1/2 drams of Schultze 11,800 pounds, and the same load pushed by 28-grains of Ballistite at 12,600 pounds!! Velocities were all given over 40 yards, not the muzzle velocity figures we are use to seeing today. The DuPont bulk gave 943 fps, the Schultze gave 941 fps, and the Ballistite 966 fps. Meanwhile 40 grains of their DuPont Oval gave that 1 1/4 ounce of #6 shot a velocity of 981 fps with a pressure of only 9,400 pounds.
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