Two foot barrels

[Stan Hillis]

Neat story, Bill. I, too, would love to see the engraving more closely on that gun. It looks like it is very fine. There are a several things that caught my eye as unusual on that gun. The bow on the triggerguard is unusually long. Might have been built for a man (Joe) who had very large hands? The bottom tang appears to go all the way to the grip cap, with two screws in it. And lastly, the safety. If the red dot that is shown being on the upper end of the safety is to indicate FIRE, wouldn't the safety be built to operate in reverse, as compared to what we normally see? I.e., if you were to push it forward, from the position it is shown in, the red dot would be covered and would indicate that it would not fire. If it is already in the rear position, why would the red be showing?

Stan

[MARSHFELLOW]

Thanks Jolly, I remember you telling me about that gun. I need to go back and find Kidd's article, I remeber that from way back too. Really neat gun and it's a good thing that you captured some of the story.

t

[jolly bill]

Yeah, pretty neat gun with some pretty slick features that Stan's keen observations pointed out. And I can't explain why the red dot on the top tang at the Safety latch shows red. I never shot the gun so I can't verify its function.

And someplace I have two black and white photos of the gun that originally got me started on the successful quest in search of the gun. I knew the owner of a gun and tackle store in Ithaca that I used to stop in and check the racks while I was down that way fishing. The owner showed me these two black and white pictures and said "Here Jolliff, you know doubles. Look at these pctures. What is this one?" I pretty much said almost instantly "looks like a pretty neat Ithaca". Wrong answer. And I got the wohle story on how the gun came about.

Anyway, I'll look for the pictures later today and scan them and copy them here. Or if someone has the DGJ index, let me know what issue and I'll check there.

Better yet, if Mr. Kidd reads this thread, he might post some of his pictures he took of the gun. Wouldn't that be sweet?

Jolly

[Silvers]

Make that the DGJ Summer 1997 - Volume 8, Issue 2..... The Ultimate Compliment by Tom Kidd. There are plenty of high resolution photos included. The red dot is indeed in the forward position. Maybe the safety slide works backwards, with FIRE in the rear position, same as some period Savage & Stevens rifles? Holdover for those familiar with hammer guns? Silvers

[eightbore]

My guess is that the Ithaca gunsmiths equipped the gun with an Ithaca three position safety. Maybe Bill will tell us whether there is another red dot in the back of the safety button.

[jolly bill]

I found those two black and white photo's of the gun showing the top and bottom. No side views.

I'm thinking the red dot replaced the normal marking of "SAFE". Safety slide operated as any other Fox. No Product Safety Commission or greedy lawyers (my apologies to any offended lawyers) back then to worry about.

Frank/Silver's - thank you for researching the issue of Tom Kidd's article about the gun.

Jolly

[bbman3]

Tom kidd has a story in DGJ years ago about an Ithaca finished Fox.I once had a factory 2E 28 ga Ithaca flues with original length 24 inch barrels and boy was it hard to shoot weighing 4 3/4 lbs and the short barrels! I moved it on down the road. Bobby

[eightbore]

Both the rib and the trigger guard of the JollyBill gun are Lefever features. I still bet there is a red dot under the rear part of the safety button. The Tom Kidd pictures were pretty nice. They are worth a look.

[Stan Hillis]

I don't have that issue, just before I started subscribing I think. I'm gonna try to order it from DGJ, if available. I've got to see some more views of that engraving. It is absolutely gorgeous, IMO. Thanks for the pictures and the other info!

Stan

[jolly bill]

I sent a note to the current owner of the Fox-Ithaca who has hunted with the gun and the Sayety latch functioned as the typical Fox would - slide forward position to shoot.

As for the red dot also being visible when the slide is in the forward shooting position: don't know, gun is buried. Buried as in behind many other nice items. If and when it is absolutely determined if the dot is present or absent in the rear position, I'll report accordingly.

Til then, I gotta dig out Mr. Kidd's DGJ article back in the Summer of 1997 issue to see the gun again.

Jolly

[Witty1]

Here are some pictures of the AE Special 16 ga with lettered 25 inch barrels and second set of 20 inch barrels on the gun. As Silver's wrote the factory cards says 25 inch barrels, curly walnut, balance at wrist for one armed man? Numbers match barrels, the original ones are now 20" barrels have Savage Utica proof mark and the replacement 25" barrels are Savage/Chicopee indicating fitting probably sometime in the late 40's or so. Why the original set is now 20 inches long vs. 25 written on the card and letter is a mystery. Modified but It was love at first site if possible, so I didn't care. Now if I could just find some Woodcock.

Interesting barrel engraving on the short ones, but I've never heard of a AE Special. Maybe 25 inch was to difficult to shoot one handed so trimed to 20, and another set made to the original 25 inches at Savage Arms Chicopee Falls.



Always liked short barrel doubles too. Thoughts?

[Silvers]

Witty thanks for posting; this is one neat upland Fox. Not only because of its history and the two short barrels, but also with its SP style stock cheeks. And there's gotta be a story on the barrel breech engravings. One consideration with Chicopee replacement barrels is that the ribs on many, perhaps most/all, were silver brazed, not soft soldered, and their attachment is as permament as it gets.

I like both ends of the spectrum. 32" barreled guns for waterfowl, similar unobstructed hunting, and for clays. I also like the short-barreled guns for eastern upland game in heavier cover and where speed of mounting and firing are prime factors. Along the latter line a somewhat shorter length of pull, something like 13-1/2 to 13-3/4" from the front trigger, is very useful. Many original Fox small bores were ordered thusly but modern target-oriented shooters are often skeptical of the shorter LOP until they try one for its intended purpose while wearing a hunting vest or coat. Nuff said. Silvers

[mc15426378]

Silvers makes some good points on shorter barrel lengths...especially when you're waist deep in a cold duck slough wearing lots of warm clothes.....waiting on the tall ones to drop in with their landing gear down.

Another + for shorter barrel lengths is the reduced weight....which is a big plus when there's no dry place to set that 32" long legged lady.

Mike

[MARSHFELLOW]

Witty, interesting 25" gun. I had a 20ga N.R. Davis "maxi-min" with factory 20" barrels.... twenty inch barrels dont leave much out there to swing.

No other original 24" Foxes boys???

tjw

[uncletom]

THEY WERE MADE!

Recently sold an unfired 'CE' 25 incher to a friend(not in the records) and have had a few other short guns over the years. A thorough search of the surviving 20 gauge records shows that 16 ea. 24" 20 gauge A. H. Fox Guns and 9 ea. 25" guns are recorded. 4 ea were 'A' grades and 5 ea. were 'AE''s. The rest were various graded guns with one 25" SPE Skeet gun built. These records have been here for many years, and are unmolested, but not complete as there are some records/cards missing. I have info on some 3420 guns out of a run of some 3974 serial numbers. Whether they assigned all numbers is unknown, but some missing 'blocks' are still without any found survivors within! So??? I sold a recorded 25" XE to a friend in New England and it sees yearly use in the grouse covers. They are out there. I would guess there were less than 30 original short A. H. Fox Guns made. My go to 20 ga. is a 27" XE that weighs 5 1/2 lbs. Remember these are the surviving records that I have, so no brats please.

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