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Some of you may remember that about a year ago I purchased an early (serial # 7647) C grade Fox two barrel set. The gun is in excellent condition with crisp engraving except that some dufus thought it would be nice to hot blue the frame. I've decided to have the frame re-color cased so that it looks sort've like a Fox should. I believe the Fox was originally set up as a "no safety" gun, probably to shoot live pigeons is my guess. You can see in the picture of the top tang that some of the original engraving has been cut away for the safety. My dilemma is should I weld up the slot and have the engraving recut to match the original configuration or leave it the way it is as a manual safety?
The second picture shows the underside of the trigger guard showing two serial numbers. The larger number 7647 matches the serial numbers on the rest of the gun. I'm taking a wild guess that the smaller serail number was a result of the gun being sent back to the factory for the second set of barrels - does this sound like a reasonable guess?
Doug, I'm surprised you had no replies despite 79 "views" so I'll throw in my 2 cents. If this were my Fox I'd have that slot filled, overtigged, and the frame tang re-engraved to restore to original configuration sans safety. That extra number stamped under the trigger guard tang doesn't appear to be factory work (IMO) and it certainly was not the norm for the Phila/Utica/Chicopee factories to stamp repair order numbers or similar in that location. Besides, the font doesn't look Foxy to me, particularly the number "1". Looking at the pic upside down, it might read 6 6 18 which is perhaps the date when the safety slot was done by a gunsmith? Whatever... I would overweld the extra number and make it go away.
I like the idea of making it a live bird gun again as well BUT... are you comfortable with that?? Do you plan to hunt with it a lot? Since the slot is there, it might be worth just leaving well enough alone for the time being if you plan to use it a bunch and having the addition of a safety device.
Just something to consider... but I would personally lean toward the live bird set-up.
Thanks to all of you for your replies! I bought this gun to use as a target gun so the idea of welding up the slot as a safety issue is not a problem. I have other shotguns for field use as most of us here do. I do wonder if, in the future, I wanted to sell the gun would it be worth less money to a potential owner with no safety. I did talk to Jim Thynne of Ivory Beads and he said make it as original. I'm also a little concerned that someone will think that its a made up gun but I do believe that the photos do show how it started life. Does everyone agree???
If any of what I asked or said sounds a little mercenary - well it is. I don't plan to sell the gun soon but I don't want to shoot my self in the foot either.
Doug Mann wrote:I did talk to Jim Thynne of Ivory Beads and he said make it as original. I'm also a little concerned that someone will think that its a made up gun but I do believe that the photos do show how it started life. Does everyone agree???
Doug I don't think you could go wrong by going with what the Callahan letter says. I'm sure something as non standard as ordered without a safety would be listed on the order card. If it doesn't address the safety who is to know what was original.
Doug Mann wrote:TB, The problem with a Callahan letter is that this Fox is to early. I don't believe that there are any existing records these early guns.
What problem? The first pic you posted is proof positive the Fox was made up without a safety, and considering its likely production date in 1907/08 - very early in the transition to "Inanimate targets" - it's almost certain the gun was ordered for the live bird rings. Also, some hunting Foxes (duckers, quail guns) were also ordered without safeties; I seem to remember reading that John Olin or Nash Buckingham or ??? ordered one or more Foxes, sans safety. Some additional thoughts: I've owned and do now own several classic side by sides that were made up without safeties, as live bird guns, and I've always had strong interest in same when showing them and/or when I wanted to sell them. The lack of a safety was not a problem, and in fact, it added to the historic appeal/worth of the gun. Another thought: No one seems to have a problem with the safety-less Fox SBT guns, why sweat over restoring a SxS Fox that was obviously made without a safety? Last one: a modern Perazzi o/u I use often in sporting competitions now has almost 20,000 rounds through her by actual count, and although it has a safety button, said button has never been in the safe position except to switch barrels (which is necessary to prevent doubling on the MX-2000 design). Net IMO, a safety on purebred gun made to shoot competition, is totally unnecessary and a potential hindrance when serious folding money, prizes or plaudits are on the line. Frank
I sure wouldn't want to be in the woods/blind along side a man with a safety-less gun!! I do agree that your gun should be restored as it was originally, but if the day comes that you do want to sell it, my guess would be 9 out of 10 guys would want the safety. Granted, I have little to no trap/skeet experience and I'm sure the gun would greatly appeal to the man looking for that very animal to use for that purpose, but I think the potential field of buyers would be a fraction of those wanting the gun for hunting and general shooting purposes. JMO
Original Fox guns built without a safety had a plug in the safety slot and any engraving would just cross the plug like it wasn't there. The safety position detents were also milled in the underside of the top strap as well on Fox Guns built without a safety .
uncletom wrote:Original Fox guns built without a safety had a plug in the safety slot and any engraving would just cross the plug like it wasn't there. The safety position detents were also milled in the underside of the top strap as well on Fox Guns built without a safety .
UncleTom, If this is true and I have no reason to believe that it is not, it is this easiest and least permanent solution to my problem. Quite honestly I han not thought of that solution at all. Thank you for the sugestion!
FWIW, my experience is different than Uncletom's. Just thinking about it, not counting Fox SBT guns, I've seen three Fox double guns made without a safety. None of them had a plug in the safety slot, and thus I personally would be suspicious of a Fox with a plug.
Safetyless Foxes were indeed made up with both mill cuts in the underside of the top tang, for the latch end of the safety spring. Refer to the pic and you'll also see the safety slot is partially cut - but not through the top surface of the frame tang; it looks like it was done with a slitting saw as machinists would call the cutting tool.
Not that it matters here, but I've owned two LC Smith pigeon guns made up without safeties and neither one had a plug in the slot.
If anyone has a good macro pic of a safetyless Fox that has a factory plug in the slot, and engraving over the plug, I and I'm sure others would like to see it posted. I'm not saying it never happened, just that I've never seen one in > 30 years of fooling around with Foxes. Silvers
I don't plan to sell the gun soon but I don't want to shoot my self in the foot either.
