Double Gun Journal

[Fin2Feather]

Craig,

Great article on the Super Fox in the new DGJ. Well written and photographed, and very informative. Congrats and thanks!

[djs]

Here's my question. Saw the DGJ article, but also some others describing the Win 21 as first gun in 20G with 3" chambers, and not until the 1950s (Randy Wakeman was source). Didn't Super Fox 20G have 3" chambers? If not, why bother with a 20G Super Fox?

[Researcher]

Very few of the Super-Fox 20-gauge guns were ordered chambered for 3-inch shells. I have found 15 times as many graded regular frame 20-gauge Ansley H. Fox doubles ordered chambered for long shells than the 20-gauge Super-Fox. Remember, the factory offered 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch 20-gauge shells for the first quarter of the 20th Century carried a load of 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20 grains of dense smokeless powder, such as Ballistite, and 7/8 ounce of shot. The 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shells were offered with 2 1/4 drams of bulk or up to 18 grains of dense smokeless powders and 7/8 ounce of shot. The longer shells offered a bit higher velocity, and more/better wadding for a better gas seal.

By the mid-1920s, Peters Cartridge Co. did offer their progressive burning powder High Velocity one ounce 20-gauge loads at extra cost in a 2 7/8 or 3-inch case, but the load was no heavier than the 2 3/4 inch Peters High Velocity. I don't find Western Cartridge Co. offering their Super-X 20-gauge shell in a long case or Remington Arms Co., Inc., offering their Nitro Express 20-gauge loads in longer cases. Both just came in a 2 3/4 inch case.

The Winchester Model 21 20-gauge Magnum was the first catalogued gun for the modern 3-inch Magnum 20-gauge shell. The 3-inch Magnum 20-gauge was a post WW-II item. The first commercial listing for a 3-inch Magnum 20-gauge was the Magnum Model 21 in the January 2, 1954 Winchester catalogue. However, there are no 3-inch 20-gauge shells listed in the January 2, 1954 Winchester Ammunition catalogue and price list!?! The Olin brothers and their buddies had been playing around with 3-inch 20-gauge Model 21s for some time before that. In the 1955 Winchester ammunition catalogue the 20-gauge 3-inch Magnum shell is offered with 1 1/8 ounce of Lubaloy #6 or 1 3/16 ounce of Lubaloy #4. That year the 2 3/4 inch Magnum shells were introduced with the 1 1/2 ounce in 12-gauge, 1 1/4 ounce in 16-gauge and 1 1/8 ounce in 20-gauge. The 3-inch 20-gauge Magnum offerings remained the same through the 1959 price list. For 1960 the 3-inch 20-gauge Magnum with 1 1/4 ounce of chilled shot was added to the offerings, while the Lubaloy loads were still 1 1/8 and 1 3/16. The Winchester/Western offerings in 3-inch 20-gauge shells remained the same thru 1968 where my old catalogues play out.

[djs]

Thanks for the info! You are saying that 3" chambered "standard guns " were made? Were they capable to handle the pressure of the later magnum loads? Were there commercial contemporary 3" loads for the earlier Foxes, or only hand loads?

[Researcher]

The North American ammunition manufacturers offered all manner of longer shells for the first quarter of the 20th Century. The longer shells didn't carry a heavier load than one could get in the 2 3/4 inch shell, just more/better wadding, which many gun cranks believed to be important --

[djs]

"have found 15 times as many graded regular frame 20-gauge Ansley H. Fox doubles ordered chambered for long shells than the 20-gauge Super Fox..."
With that being said, assuming one found a 3" chambered, 20G non Super Fox, would the gun be able to accommodate modern 3" magnums? I imagine the Super Fox could handle current loads easily, just because of the beefier barrel size.

[Foxnut]

Craig,
Great article and some screaming pics. Well done! Brett

[loggy]

The DGJ finally made it to my mail box today. My wife thought i was getting cranky when the mailman kept leaving an empty mail box. The Super Fox article was very well done. Lots of new information. You have certainly found some very nice examples for you collection. Thanks again for your efforts. John

[jolly bill]

Craig,

Very nice job indeed on the article and the pictures.

Great to see some nice Fox material in the DGJ again.

Jolly

[Researcher]

With that being said, assuming one found a 3" chambered, 20G non Super Fox, would the gun be able to accommodate modern 3" magnums? I imagine the Super Fox could handle current loads easily, just because of the beefier barrel size

I wouldn't be touching off modern 3-inch Magnum 20-gauge shells in some of the 20-gauge guns I've found in the records ordered with 3-inch chambers, some of which weighed less than six pounds. The SAAMI specs for all 20-gauge shells is a max average pressure of 12000 psi.