Early A Grade

[teckbot]

Hello all,
I recently purchased an early Fox A grade with 26" barrels. At s/n 132X we do not how early other than 1905 0r 1906 according to Mr Callahan. There is no specific information on the the gun as records were not available before s/n 9000-ish. As Mr Callahan has the manufacture cards for these gun i take it as being so. My open request is to other owners, if anyone could share any kind of historical data on early guns, or point me in the right direction. Plans are to restore the old gal to her truthful old glory.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks

[George Lander]

Teckbot: I would advise obtaining Michael McIntosh's book: "A.H. Fox, The Finest Gun In The World" In it there are several chapters on the early days of Fox when Ansley still ran the company. AMAZON should have it.

Best Regards, George

[teckbot]

Thank You George. Book is on order! - Gabor

[ASavageFox]

Gabor,

Does your gun happen to just say "FOX" on the side or does it say "Ansley H. Fox" ? Is the hinge pin recessed?

The Philadelphia Arms company built a gun that said Fox on the side and was designed by Ansley Fox and has been confused with an early AH Fox Gun Company gun by many ppl...just thought it would be worth asking.

Good luck with your restoration.

[Researcher]

teckbot,

Welcome to our site. I encourage you to join the A.H. Fox Collectors Association, Inc. In my history series in the Newsletter, I've gotten thru the Philadelphia Arms Co. days, and in the next issue I'll be starting on the A.H. Fox Gun Co. While Mike was a great writer, and his book is well worth reading, keep in mind that the research that went into the FBITW is getting up near twenty years old. We've found a lot of interesting information since then.

The very earliest A.H. Fox Gun Co. guns have --

PAT'D AUG.1 1905
OTHER PATENTS PENDING

on the watertable along with the serial number and grade. A bit later they have --

PAT'D AUG.1 1905
OCT.17 1905- JAN.16 1906

I'd be interested to see some good pictures of your gun, especially the watertable and barrel flat stampings. If you don't want to post them on the open forum, you could email them to me at AHFCA@comcast.net

Dave

[teckbot]

All

Thank You for the interest. Here are a couple of pictures to hopefully help

Gabor

[Researcher]

Good quality pictures. Thank you for sharing. I have recorded several guns with one or two digit serial numbers showing the

PAT'D AUG.1 1905
OTHER PATENTS PENDING

and some like this in the 1xxx serial number range with the

PAT'D AUG.1 1905
OCT.17 1905- JAN.16 1906.

It would be great to see the watertables of some three-digit serial number guns so we can narrow down how many guns were made in 1905.

Likewise it would be great to see the lowest serial number guns with the

PAT'D DEC 2 1902
AUG.16 1904 AUG.1 1905
OCT 17 1905 JAN 16 1906

which would show us how many they made at the Wayne & Bristol Street location before they bought out Philadelphia Arms Co. and moved into the factory at North 18th Street and Windrim Avenue. Dec. 2, 1902 and Aug. 16, 1904, are for patents that belonged to Philadelphia Arms Co. and really have nothing to do with the Ansley H. Fox double, but apparently the A.H. Fox Gun Co. thought the more patent dates the better.

[MikeR]

I have an A grade Fox "cut away" number 480. The watertable has the following

PAT'D AUG. 1 1905
OTHER PATENTS PENDING

Mike

[Capt. ORourke]

Hello,
The project has now started and I am posting a "before" picture for you - at least trying to post it.

As you can see this gun is very very rough but I am hopeful it can be brought back to life. I have no illusions that this will be a top end firearm but it is my hope that it will at least be presentable and more importantly usable.

I will post more pictures as we move forward. Thank you again everyone for your input as it has helped me get this project up and running.

Capt. O'Rourke

[teckbot]

Well i had a visit with a local engraver as part of the restoration project. He is going to re-cut all the existing lines and nothing extra. He smoke lifted all the patterns of the frame to document what is there, as we may loose some of them during polishing in preparation for color case hardening. He pointed out something very interesting and then echoed in the McIntosh book. The engraving (and i am only guessing as on low grade guns) is sloppy. Lines that do not meet lines cut at inconsistent depth, etc. To keep costs at bay, Fox had a supply of fresh European immigrants working at the factory working for low wages performing entry level jobs. Keeping in line with what is on the gun now, we will take attention to keep the engraving as sloppy as was from the factory new.

[Twice Barrel]

Based on the price competition of comparable guns of the day it seems pretty fair to say that it is pretty lucky that Ansley decided to put any engraving above simple line engraving at all on the then entry level A grade. I find it even more remarkable that he was able to carry on with second generation engraving and still compete with the likes of Parker, Ithaca, LC Smith and Lefever.

[DGKaas]

Ansley Fox was not able to compete. His company went bankrupt. I really don't think he had much to do with the new A grade. When the Godshalks purchased the company out of bankruptcy, they had a much lower basis and no investors to satisfy. This gave them the latitude to update the line. They also had a basic design that was (relatively) simple and cheaper to manufacture than many of the competition. The success of the Sterlingworth during the 1912-1927 period allowed manufacturing economies of scale that supported the higher grades. Moreover, unlike AHF, they were canny businessmen. They got in cheap and got out, selling to Savage, just before the Depression. They remained in their manufacturing business in Philadelphia long after Parker, Smith and others were mere memories. As far as engraving goes, Wm. Gough was hired to cost effectively "snazz" up the line. The 2nd generation A grades coarse but attractive engraving is a perfect example (the post 1913 Ideal grade Smith is another example of the same marketing theme). It's not romance, it is just basic business. Instead of deifying Ansley Fox, we should be grateful that Godshalk pere et fils, figured they could make a buck in the gun business

[Researcher]

Gotta wonder about our heros business sense to go out and found two companies to make double guns after a couple of years of shucking the
Model 1897 for the big W!! And, to make things really bad he founded the A.H. Fox Gun Co. the same year Remington Arms Co. introduce their John M. Browning designed Remington Autoloading Gun. Through the time Ansley lost the A.H. Fox Gun Co. Remington was shipping more Autoloading Guns per year than Ansley made in his entire gun making career.

[MARSHFELLOW]

Seems to me that Mr. Smith got out in time to sell a WHOLE bunch of typewriters....out doing stuff just like the Godshalks.

[teckbot]

Now that I have my wood (English walnut of course) brings up another question: What would have been the correct original but plate or recoil pad for the Fox?

Thank you