Is there any real difference between a Utica vs. Philly?

[Clarence Kavanaugh]

I have watch several of the gun auction sites looking for a nice little Sterlingworth 20ga. and have noted that Philly Fox's seem to be in higher demand and command a slightly higher price then the Utica Fox's? Is there something different about the Philly as far as the quality of the workmanship or is this difference only in the individual's mind as to which one is better? I've seen both a late Philly Sterlingworth (1925) and a early Utica (1931) and personally I can't see any difference that would warrant price differences or demand.

But then I'm new to the brand and don't have the knowledge or experience as those of you on this forum. But I'm trying!

Clarence Kavanaugh

[fox-admin]

Clarence: Maybe it's because I am a life long resident of NYS, but I think the Utica guns are every bit as nice as the late Philly guns. In my opinion all the Fox Sterly's are the best bargain in vintage American SxS's but the Utica guns are every bit as nice compared to the late Philly guns. The 20 and 16 ga Sterly's are the best value in small bores. The LC's may be a little cheaper but you always worry about wood problems with LC's.

[birdawg]

What Craig said, although I am not from New York.
In addition a late 30's gun may have better metal and have better stock dimensions making the newer gun a better hunting gun.

[J Mason]

i prefer the philly guns, for the simple reason that i like the shape and configuration of the stock and fore-end, i have seen a straight stock utica 20g that i would have loved to own though...theres somthing about a gun that 80 to 100 years old that appeals to me, the age and the wear and tear "patina" so to say is half the charm of my philly guns, most of the utica guns ive seen just dont seen to have the charm of the older phillys... thats just my opinion though

[Researcher]

To Phily or Utica, That Is The Question – As with all American doubles earlier the Ansley H. Fox gun the better the workmanship, and quality of wood grade for grade. I have seen some pretty lame very late Utica Fox-Sterlingworths. I haven’t observed that much of a decline in the quality of the graded Ansley H. Fox guns built by Savage. They seem to remain pretty much the same as the late 1920s Philadelphia built guns, except for the uglier profile of some of the top-levers, and the bulkier forearm wood, which some like and some don’t.

The older guns often have more drop at heel than most people like today. The standard drop-at-heel for Philadelphia vintage Sterlingworths was 3-inches for 26-inch (Brush) and 28-inch (Field) barreled guns, and 2 3/4 - inch for 30-inch (Standard) and 32-inch (Trap). Names in () how factory referred to various barrel length Sterlingworths. Stock dimensions were to order on graded guns so anything is possible. I have a 1914 A-grade 12-gauge straight-grip that came from the factory with 2 1/4 inch drop-at-heel. A friend has an AE-grade 20-gauge with 3 1/2 - inch drop-at-heel! All the Savage vintage catalogues list 2 3/4 inch drop-at-heel as standard for all barrel length Sterlingworths. Later guns also tend to have their barrels a little less finely struck and hence weigh a bit more. While the Sterlingworth was always stocked with American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra), pre WW-I graded guns were all stocked in European Walnut (Juglans regia). After WW-I only XE-grade and above were listed in the catalogues with Juglans regia, and by the last Savage catalogue all mention of European Walnut had disappeared.

Trojan vs Sterlingworth -- Opinions being like a------s and everyone has one, I will risk venturing mine.
As to workmanship, I'd say that when the Sterlingworth came out in 1910 as a $25 gun its workmanship was really quite good. The Trojan when it came out a couple of years later at $27.50 was also of good quality. After WW-I the prices went up steeply and by 1919 the Sterlingworth had a list price of $55. Fox then cut the price to $48 in 1922 then to $36.50 in 1926 and of course workmanship and wood quality suffered. While Parker did eliminate the rib extension on the Trojan overall quality stayed high and so did the price with a price of $51.50 in 1927 and $55 by 1929.

A Fox unless everything is just right can sometimes be hard to open because of firing pin points sticking in primers. Parkers with rebounding hammers don't have this fault. Trojans in 12-gauge are built on the #2 frame and tend to be heavy. It is fairly easy to find 30-inch 12-gauge Sterlingworths right at 7 pounds and shorter barrels a bit under. Similarly I believe small bore Sterlingworths tend to run lighter than Trojans. Sterlingworths were offered in 26-, 28-, 30-, and 32-inch barrels in all three gauges while Trojans had a more limited selection of barrel lengths -- 30-, 28, and 26- inch in 12-gauge and only 28- and 26-inch in the small bores. There should also be many more Sterlingworths out there to choose from as Fox made about 111,000 in 12-gauge, 28,000 in 16-gauge and 21,000 in 20-gauge, as to about 33,000 total Trojans by the Brothers P. Also, Sterlingworths were available with ejectors. While both were offered with single triggers, they are not often seen on these entry-level guns.

[jmc]

A couple of other observations of later Philly and Utica Sterlingworths are that at some point the top of the action where the frame meets the top tang near the recess for the top lever, the corner was squared off instead of radiused. I prefer the rounded transition as opposed to the angular corner. This was probably a cost saving measure in terms of final fitting of the stock to the action. Additionally, I've heard the calibration of the tooling and dulling of roll stamps in later production years made for less than crisp engraving. Although the Sterlingworth is minimally engraved, I think its understated elegance and I look out for as much of it as possible when choosing a gun. My 1914 Sterlingworth 12 ga. Brush model has near perfect engraving and roll stamps.

[Twice Barrel]

I've heard the calibration of the tooling and dulling of roll stamps in later production years made for less than crisp engraving.

Poor roll stamps appear to have been a problem throughout Sterlingworth production. Mis-alignment and deformed or missing letters lead to some pretty strange markings. For example I have a 1921 vintage "Sterlingwort".

[Fin2Feather]

If you're looking for a hunting arm I can guarantee you that the birds won't know the difference.

[Clarence Kavanaugh]

If you're looking for a hunting arm I can guarantee you that the birds won't know the difference.

I'm looking for a Sterlingworth for a couple of reasons.

First is that I just want one of the old American classic and the Sterlingworth seem to fit my current budget.

Second is that investment to use as a means to save for either a graded AH Fox or a Parker in 20 gauge.

Third is to have a nice SxS hunting/clay gun.

I just want to make sure that there wasn't a design change in the early Utica guns which would compromise quality or workmanship where I would lose on my investment. I've been eyeing a gun on one of the auction sites that serial range is 1930.

[ASavageFox]

I think you have a handle on it... there were no true design changes... other than forearm latches, there was hardly ever a "design" change in the S/W until you get to the draw bolt and that is hardly much of a change either.

I think you will find, all else being equal, that the Philly guns have a reputation for being nicer and thus will more often bring a slightly higher price. The reality being that you need to evaluate any Fox on its own merits.

The truth is that the SW is a gun that is under demanded for the supply... in my opinion, you should be able to find a reasonable condition, sound, shooter/hunter, extractor 12 gauge SW for $750 or less no problem. Due diligence and you can probably grab a real decent one for as little as $500. I've seen a few with less than stellar condition sell for under $300 lately and saw a nice ejector one sell for $700, as I recall, not too long back...

Good luck!! Post up some pics and details when you do find one that suits you!

[Clarence Kavanaugh]

I think you have a handle on it... there were no true design changes... other than forearm latches, there was hardly ever a "design" change in the S/W until you get to the draw bolt and that is hardly much of a change either.

I think you will find, all else being equal, that the Philly guns have a reputation for being nicer and thus will more often bring a slightly higher price. The reality being that you need to evaluate any Fox on its own merits.

The truth is that the SW is a gun that is under demanded for the supply... in my opinion, you should be able to find a reasonable condition, sound, shooter/hunter, extractor 12 gauge SW for $750 or less no problem. Due diligence and you can probably grab a real decent one for as little as $500. I've seen a few with less than stellar condition sell for under $300 lately and saw a nice ejector one sell for $700, as I recall, not too long back...

Good luck!! Post up some pics and details when you do find one that suits you!

I must be looking in the wrong places. The cheapest Fox/Sterlingworth I've seen have been around $650 and that is a 12ga with no finish, a crack in either the forearm and/or stock and with slight (up for interpretation) pitting in the barrels. From there it seems to jump to $800-$850 and from there to $1400 +.

What I'm looking for is a Sterlingworth in 20 gauge (add 75% to the foremention cost according to BlueBook) with 28" barrels, no pitting, and approximately NRA 70% or better. I would like the chokes in IC/Mod but my understanding is that these guns usually came in Mod/Full from the factory. I guess that would mean that either I get more practice, just wait for the target to get out just a little bit further or have a barrel man open the chokes. Something that I prefer not to do to a classic.

In any case if you could direct me to this bargain Sterlingworth Utopia it would be appreciated

[tony williamson]

I havent found the bargain utopia yet either. If i did i would have more foxes at home..

[ASavageFox]

a little later I will send both of you links to a few guns... I know have saved in my gunbroker account at least two SW that sold for under $300 in the last few weeks...

[Fin2Feather]

If you're looking for a hunting arm I can guarantee you that the birds won't know the difference.

I'm looking for a Sterlingworth for a couple of reasons.

First is that I just want one of the old American classic and the Sterlingworth seem to fit my current budget.

Second is that investment to use as a means to save for either a graded AH Fox or a Parker in 20 gauge.

Third is to have a nice SxS hunting/clay gun.

I just want to make sure that there wasn't a design change in the early Utica guns which would compromise quality or workmanship where I would lose on my investment. I've been eyeing a gun on one of the auction sites that serial range is 1930.

I hope my post didn't sound catty; it was a poor attempt at a little levity. I have mid-30's Utica SW's in 20, 16 and 12 ga, and as you can tell from my sig line, I love them. I'm far from the expert so I can't contrast/compare to Philly guns, but as a shooter and not a collector I do like the fact that their dimensions and chamber lengths are a bit more "modern". I will say this: None of mine were found in "Sterlingworth Utopia" either. The 12 was the closest.

[Clarence Kavanaugh]

If you're looking for a hunting arm I can guarantee you that the birds won't know the difference.

I'm looking for a Sterlingworth for a couple of reasons.

First is that I just want one of the old American classic and the Sterlingworth seem to fit my current budget.

Second is that investment to use as a means to save for either a graded AH Fox or a Parker in 20 gauge.

Third is to have a nice SxS hunting/clay gun.

I just want to make sure that there wasn't a design change in the early Utica guns which would compromise quality or workmanship where I would lose on my investment. I've been eyeing a gun on one of the auction sites that serial range is 1930.

I hope my post didn't sound catty; it was a poor attempt at a little levity. I have mid-30's Utica SW's in 20, 16 and 12 ga, and as you can tell from my sig line, I love them. I'm far from the expert so I can't contrast/compare to Philly guns, but as a shooter and not a collector I do like the fact that their dimensions and chamber lengths are a bit more "modern". I will say this: None of mine were found in "Sterlingworth Utopia" either. The 12 was the closest.

Not at all. I just noticed that the Philly guns seem to command higher price and seem to be more sought after then the Utica. A few times I've seen a Utica gun which appeared in better condition then a comparably price Philly but the Philly would be bided on but the Utica wouldn't. I assume that there was a reason like workmanship or quality issues significant to warrant such choices. I'm now wondering if it's just a case of association and what Savage did to the brand later with the production of the BSE, which are the only so-call Fox's that I've seen in the $300 dollar range.

I did run into a guy the other day at one of the gun shops that I frequent who claims that he was at a gunshow a month or two ago and pickup a Sterlingworth 12ga 30" barrels in roughly 60%-70% with a SST for $500.00. Besides the wear according to him, there was some pitting in one barrel but nothing of anything significance.

So I guess they're out there but it's one of those "in the right place at the right time" situations. But I'm on GunBroker, GunsInternational, GunsAmerica, and AuctionArms everyday at least once a day for the last 8 months and I don't recall seeing a $300 dollar Sterlingworth. But then I'm focusing on finding a 20 gauge which commands a higher dollar.