HE chamber length

[jkline356]

I just bought a HE and the work order said 3" but it isn't stamped on the water table. Is this unusual? Anyone seen this before? Can't measure chambers with a drop in gauge. They are too tight. How are these chambers then measured? Bore gauge?
Thanks,
Jim

[fox-admin]

I did examine a S-F where the factory card specified 2 3/4" chambers, the gun had 3" chambers and the barrel flats were stamped properly. I have never seen a factory card that specified 3" and the barrel flats were not stamped, but it would be a concern for me. I have a Galazan chamber gauge and it measures my S-F gun chambers without any problem. You can measure the chambers with a machinist's scale, just hold the barrels up to a light source and measure to the end of the chamber. A Galazan bore gauge will not open up enough to measure a 12ga chamber.

[scaupman]

I have an HE in which the Roe Clark letter says is chambered for 3" shells and the AHFCA database says 3" (marked), but there is no 3" stamp on barrel flats and Dewey Vicknair measured the chambers as 2 3/4".

The 32" 0 weight barrels on this gun have been reblued, but otherwise look original to me (Dewey agrees), with typical Fox proof mark, inspectors mark, and serial number; however the "not guaranteed" legend is hand engraved and not rolled stamped and thus is not original.

Dewey measured bores as L = .746 and R = .749, with chokes L = 0.050 and R = .053

[Silvers]

N.B. that shotgun chamber reamers normally have an "included taper" of about .005" taper per inch of run. Conversely, most chamber gauges are cut as straight cylinders, or are punched from flat stock in the shape of a rectangle (sides not tapered). Thus the best you're going to do when using a gauge of X outside diameter or width is to run it in until the gauge hits X inside diameter at the front end of the chamber. Keeping in mind that .005" taper per inch - it is readily seen that the combo of a max diameter/width chamber gauge and a minimum chamber (such as on early Super Foxes) will give a shorter chamber length reading than is actually built into the gun. Another factor is complicate things is that a new chambering reamer will cut larger chambers than a worn reamer = so called manufacturing tolerance. In sum, IMO the very best method of measuring shotgun chambers is to "bump" a small machinist scale into the very start of the forcing cone as described here by Fox Admin. Silvers

[Snipe Flats]

Fox-Adm,

I have read that some 200 or so 12 gauge HEs were built by the Fox Gun Go. and a much smaller number of 20s, less than 60. Does anyone know how many guns were 3" chambers and or 2 3/4"? Have you identified how many folks on your site possess HEs? I understand from my limited reading that there were fewer 2 3/4 HEs than 3 inches? I also understand that Becker also made similar if not identical guns of similar demensions and barrel internals but were not marketed as Fox Guns? If so, does anyone know how many of those were built? After Fox went into receivership in 1929 I understand that Savage continued to make field grade HEs under the trade name "Wildfowler" from left over fox gun parts. Do we know just how many of those were built? I don't see many of them, much ever.

Respectfully,

Snipe Flats

[Researcher]

McIntosh was way off in his estimate of how many 12-gauge Super-Fox guns were made. The AHFCA has identified nearly 950 from the copy of the graded guns records we were gifted by R.W. Harris. Craig may know the percent of 3-inch chambered guns, but I don't know that number off the top of my head.

Fox-Sterlingworth Wildfowl -- Starting with the 1934 Wholesale Retail price list and sporadically through 1940 Savage offered a Sterlingworth version of the Super-Fox. Basically using the HE-grade iron, including ejectors and the Deeley forearm latch, engraved in Sterlingworth style and fitted with Sterlingworth quality wood. The only one I've had the opportunity to measure the bores on, the one pictured in McIntosh's book, had bores of.728" with .039" choke in both tubes. Compared to my 1928 vintage Super-Fox it handles with all the grace of a railroad tie. Eight Fox-Sterlingworth Wildfowls I've had an opportunity to examine have had serial numbers in the 134,103 to 134,130 range. The last few 12-gauge guns assembled with graded gun serial numbers were also Fox-Sterlingworth Wildfowls in the 3528x range.

[Snipe Flats]

Researcher,

I appreciate your information. It is always nice to have accurate data. What do you know of the Becker marketed guns? Several years ago I had a conversation with Tom Kidd regarding locating an HE. He indicated that Mike M. had really increased interest in the gun (HEs) but he (Tom) didn't really understand everyone's enthusiasm, at the time, as to why. He indicated to me that he had a Becker gun that I could have, starting at around $25K. I didn't consider that particular gun but sometime later ended up with an early (1923) HE from another source. It handles pretty well; you certainly have a more difficult time slowing down those heavy 32", "O" barrels during your follow through, which is a good thing.

Appreciate your reply,
Snipe Flats

[wraco]

I have an HE Grade with 3" chambers. It's not marked anywhere as such but on the barrel flats it's stamped "Not Guaranteed", meaning the pattern is not quaranteed. It's quite an early gun.

Rod

[terc]

I also have an HE, #300xx. The Clark letter and production card show it to be made with 3" chambers. The barrel flats do have the not garanteed stamp,but do not have the 3" stamp. The Galazan chamber gauge shows them to be between 2 3/4" and 3".
Dave