Possibly buying an A grade Fox... ???

[GWPHUNTER]

I've always wanted a Fox but after getting frustrated trying to find one that i really liked i decided to buy a newer double instead. Well, now an A grade 12 gauge that i really like has become available and I'm going to look at it next weekend. The gun has been slightly refinished so my question is, what are some things that i should look for when i go to look over the gun? Obvious things would be to see if it locks up tight and the barrels ring true, but what else should i look for?

I've done a lot of searching but what should i pay for a gun that has been slightly refinished with the stock and forend not refinished very well? The asking price is $1599. The specs are as follows: 26" barrels full/mod, 2 1/2" chamber that will be punched to 2 3/4", and what is really attractive is that is weighs 6.8 lbs.

This gun has later engraving not the early engraving.

thanks in advance,

Mike

[Scott]

Check the barrels carefully, measure the wall thickness! You may not be able to open the chambers if the walls are not thick enough, also be sure the barrels are not cut. If it were my gun I would not open the chambers I would use RST ammo. http://www.classicusc.com/RST_Shotshells_s/139.htm. Make sure the stock is not cracked unless you plan to restock it.

Scott

[eightbore]

Make sure the rather scarce 26" barrels weren't made that way by cutting. Measure the bores and chokes or request a serial number check. The price is very high so everything must be right for the gun to "qualify". The record card should show some special treatment for the buyer to get the weight that low.

[GWPHUNTER]

HOw long will it take to get the specifications if i request a serial number check?

[Silvers]

MIke, if you've already joined the AHFCA as a paid annual or life member the card check can be done in several hours by signing onto the MEMBERS FORUM and following the procedure posted therein. However if you are a "registered user" only at this point, a record check isn't possible on short notice. Signup will take at least two weeks, possibly a bit more. Membership icon is on the home page. Members get one free record search per year. Graded guns only, we do not have card copies for Sterlingworths.

Another reason to join - much technical info is exchanged in the Members Forum and that is not obvious to folks who are merely registered here. Also, Fox guns may be advertised for sale and wanted.

Meanwhile, besides trying to verify original 26" barrels by measuring the choke leade, you'll want to check the bore and choke diameters as already written. A good bore mike is absolutely essential. You mentioned checking for lockup and ringing the barrels. Also check for loose ribs, subtle dents-dings-bulges-scratches in the bores, ejector function and timing if this is an ejector Fox, trigger-hammer-safety function, deformed screw slots, condition of the stock heading, installation of a mid bead that is off center in the top rib. Personally I wouldn't be "punching out" the chambers unless I was absolutely sure I'll have enough wall afterwards, and even then I'd think long and hard about doing it. Chamber length gauge is also a must to see if someone already did some punching. Net, the question you posed would take many paragraphs or a small article to answer; hopefully these bullet points will help. Silvers

[vaturkey]

I've seen a pile of Foxes with cut barrels in the past few years. Went to an auction last year on the eastern shore, and they had 4 Foxes and all of them had cut barrels as the original (very well to do) owner used them over pointing dogs for quail and had them shortened (very good job). On all of those guns, the barrel ends didn't touch. There are exceptions of course, but if you don't have the tools to measure the bores, a quick rule of thumb is if they don't touch they aren't original. PS. One of the graded Foxes at the auction had been cut down to 26". They also had a SW straight grip that I would have bought, but it also had cut barrels (also down to 26").

[GWPHUNTER]

Silvers,

I haven't joined yet but i will.

vaturkey,
I never really looked at any double to see if the barrels touch but will look. If the barrels have been cut how far back from the muzzle will the chokes end. I would think if the gun was a 28" or longer the chokes would have been cut off too.

thanks for all your help and if anyone else wants or can chime in, please do. I"ve never purchased a classic before and i'm 100% positive that all the research i've done on fox guns is just the tip of the iceburg.

[Researcher]

VAQTurkey, that just aint right. Very few 26-inch barrel Ansley H. Fox guns have the barrel tubes touching at the muzzle. These four all letter as 26-inch and none of themtouch at the muzzle --

[Silvers]

On any original Fox barrel - while using a bore mike - the choke leade (start of the choke taper) should be felt or read about 3.5 - 4" back from the muzzles. Super Foxes and X-full choke regular frame guns will often start a bit farther back than that. Regarding cut barrels, if the leade starts about 2" back from the muzzles you can be pretty sure the barrels have been cut 2", etc.

Incidentally just to keep us Fox guys and gals on the up and up, I often see folks referring to a micrometer and using the term "mic" instead of the correct word: "mike". You can google it to verify the correct spelling. Mike can be used as a verb or noun. Spend some time in a machine shop and you'll hear the word used often. Silvers

[eightbore]

Sorry guys. My friends VAturkey and Silvers are wrong and my other friend Reseacher is right. The muzzles on original Fox guns don't always touch and factory original short barrel Foxes don't always have the length of chokes that Silvers mentions. Researcher and I have both seen Fox order cards that say, in effect, "Cut barrels of longer length to make this gun." or a similar message. Such guns would not have the characteristic long chokes of Fox guns. Some of those original guns were cut enough to lighten the chokes to less than full. Some were cut enough to make them into very open choked guns. Never use muzzle appearance to determine the originality of a Fox gun when you have the Callahan or AHFCA letter to help you out.

[eightbore]

Frank, thanks for the heads up on the proper terminology for the micrometer.

[Twice Barrel]

While on the subject of barrels I have also found that Fox was not too particular in finishing barrels to the exact length. In my meager assortment I have only one late manufacture Sterlingworth and one AE gun that have barrels that measure exactly on the even inch. All the others are a 1/16th to 3/32ds inches longer than the even inch.

[Silvers]

Bill thanks for your correction. You are of course correct that at odd times Fox barrels were factory-cut from longer ones. However in the vast majority of cases I think people looking for a quick verification would be well advised to verify the start of the choke tapers at 3.5 to 4" back from the muzzles. Likewise I agree 100% that it's not definitive to use the tubes touching at the muzzles as a test for correct barrel length. This underscores why interested parties should consider becoming an AHFCA member to have quick access to the record card copies. Frank

[eightbore]

Frank, obviously, if the provenance information is available, we should use it. Thanks for the reply.

[GWPHUNTER]

I finally got a chance to look at this gun. At first glance it was pretty nice even though it had a lot of varnish on the splinter and restocked butt stock.

I think the gun has big problems... When the action is closed, the right barrel wouldn't hold a piece of paper indicating that the right barrel was not very tight on face. When the gun is open the action is very, very sloppy as it has a lot of movement from side to side. Something else i noticed was that when the action was open, the opening lever would snap back to it's starting position which would be just right of center.

I also noticed the hook on the barrels was really worn and sloppy which i'm sure contributes to the slop in the action.

I really liked the gun with it's mild restoration but are these problems easily fixed for a reasonable amount of money?

I really like that it weighs 6.8 lbs and it is a legit 26" barreled gun, but should i move on or try to have the gun fixed?

The gun is going for 1600 and he would only drop 100 bucks on the deal which if it needs a lot of work it may not be worth it.