winchester loads

[lee r moege]

Hey guys, I just got a couple of boxes of the Winchester premium Pheasant loads in 2 3/4" 3 1/4 dram copper #4 12 gage load on a fill in trade with my local outfitter. They are 1 3/8 oz. loads listed at 1475 FPS. I am debating whether or not to shoot them in my A Fox Krupp barreled gun. I had some Federal American Eagle copper #4's in 1 1/4 ounce that a shot a couple of turkeys with this spring and I''m sure they are lower pressure, {see previous post on Kansas turkeys this spring]. The gun is 2 3/4" chambered. Of course I won't be shooting them a bunch but I have a Winchester 21 that I know will handle them easily. I'm sure Frank has an opinion on this, and am always glad to hear his input. By the way Frank I was raised a "blackbread eater", my family coming from Werneke which was Prussia and my great great grandmother was a Hohenzollern. Thanks Lee. Happy shooting at the Vintagers I wish I could be there!

[Silvers]

Lee, my opinion only. 1-3/8 ounce at 1475 fps is a pretty snotty load and I wouldn't be shooting any of those in an early low carbon steel framed Fox - whether original short chambered or opened to 2-3/4 inch. Recoil will be pretty heavy. Frame flexing/springing will be increased. I also think there's a chance of popping a rib that's held on with 100 or so year old solder, due to change in barrel vibration than when conventional shells are fired. Of course most all 12 gauge Foxes have been shot over the years with so called High Brass 1-1/4 ounce loads but they are nowhere near 1475 fps hence recoil is much less than with the premium pheasant loads you referenced.

PS are you sure it's 1475 fps for those loads? That sounds awful high for 1-3/8 ouncers. Wow! Frank

[eightbore]

I can load 1 3/8 ounce lead loads that would be much more friendly to your gun than the ones you describe. As Silvers suggests, your loads sound like something we have never heard of before and would never shoot in our own guns.

[Twice Barrel]

Lee that load would generate over 46 ft lbs of recoil in the average 7 1/2 pound 12 gauge Fox which is more than twice the recoil of the average pre WWII 1 1/8th ounce 12 gauge load.

Depending on the powder used your gun could probably tolerate the chamber pressure but I don't think it would be long at all before the excessive recoil would start doing serious damage to the stock, hinge pin and locking mechanism.

[Silvers]

Just one final comment to add to Bill's and TB's; the 1-3/8 ounce 3 INCH Super-X shell was originally developed in conjunction with Super Foxes built on the heavy 0 frame and with heavy weight barrels. Average pressure with progressive powder was ~8,000 psi, as compared with ~9,000 psi for 1-1/4 ounce loads in 2-3/4" cases with then conventional smokeless powders. Do you really want to shoot 1-3/8 ounce modern loads generating up to SAAMI max pressure in an ~100 year old Fox built of low carbon steel on a regular frame, not the newer 0 frame made with alloy steel? I heartily recommend you heed the WARNING label printed on the end flap of the shell box. Silvers

[lee r moege]

Thanks to all of you! I was a little suprised with the velocity and shot weight myself. These I think are the newest "short mag" Winchester shells out and are marked Supreme Pheasant on the box. These babys aren't even going through my Model 21 but I think I will give them to my son who has a Model 12 3" Duck and let his 43 year old body take the thumping. Lee.

[eightbore]

Good decision. The 3" Model 21 has standard weight Model 21 tubes, not a special heavy tube like the Model 12 3" gun. I would not shoot any non standard shell in my 3" Model 21s. Contrary to what most people think, the Model 21 Duck gun usually comes in at 7 1/2 to 7 3/4 pounds, about the same as a standard Model 21 field gun.

[DGKaas]

There is NO way a 12g 1 3/8 oz load at 1475 fps are 3 1/4 DRE (dram equivalent). A standard pigeon load in Winchester guise is 3 1/4 dre 1 1/4oz at 1220 fps. The load you refer if accurately report is likely "MAX" dre.

BTW, the last royal family of Prussia and Imperial Germany, the Hohenzollerns were not in fact "Prussian" in origin but from Swabia, modern day Wurttemburg in SW Germany. The family divided on the usual 16th century religious lines with one branch ending up in Brandenburg through various dynastic alliances. You can visit your family's beautiful castle in Sigamaringen.Perhaps, think Frank Strebo's (that's "Silvers not Sliver") people might have hailed from a different line than yours...It was a confusing part of Europe for centuries, what is now Poland. Much like the western Czech Republic, north eastern Poland (the former Ost Preussen) is now devoid of ethnic Germans. "Ethnic Cleansing 1945 style" perhaps a well deserved revenge...if you travel to both places today and come across a large cemetary you will often see an older section well overgrown while the bulk of the grounds are appropriately tended...the unkempt section will contain the German graves with family plots going back to the 17th century. Sorry, I sat in and made too many history lectures...

[fox-admin]

One of the cards for a HE of Savage vintage says proof test to 18000 psi

[lee r moege]

Don and Frank. I got on the Winchester site and found the loads I am refering to as Cat.#X12PHV4. They have NO dram equivalent but list the 1475fps@ 3 feet from the muzzle. No pressures are given. This is a Super X loading. They are advertised as "Super Pheasant" loads and must be kind of new. Thanks for the history input Don, and you are right my clan is the Brandenburg branch. My youngest sister was there this past spring and visited the castle and a bunch of cemetarys All she came home with was "delusions of granduer". End of thread! Lee.