When is a Fox not a Fox?

bamboozler · Post by **bamboozler** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:56 pm

When is a Fox not a Fox?...I've been contemplating this for a number of years.

Tony Galazan's CSMC builds a wonderful gun he calls an A.H. Fox that in my mind it is every bit as much a Fox as a Philly Fox is a Fox, in the same sense that a Parker Reproduction is a Parker, or Steve Lamboy's Ithaca Classic Doubles is an Ithaca. Parker Reproductions would have simply been named Parkers weren't it for some name licensing issues, perhaps Lamboy faced the same name licensing issues. I understand Galazan bought the A.H. Fox name from Savage, allowing him to name them A.H. Fox's, or he too; would have had to probably name his gun a Fox Reproduction. How about his CSMC Model 21, are they as much a Winchester as a Winchester Model 21 save for the name because of licensing issues?

Where do you come down on this, when is a Fox not a Fox?

FRBRIT · Post by **FRBRIT** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:31 pm

Heavy stuff here. I've contemplated the same question myself over the year's. I own or have owned several Parker re-pro's over the years and I feel they are a great bargain for what you get and probably the biggest knock on them is the made in Japan stamping.

As far as the CSMC Foxes go. I feel that on one hand we are very lucky in the fact that if we want to and have the resources we can currently order one of our beloved Foxes brand new and custom made for us as I write this. You can't presently say that about any other classic American SxS other than the CSMC Model 21. But with that said I feel that rather than a continuation of the Fox line I view them much as I do custom Fox up-grades. Even though you can order a particular grade, C-grade or above they still don't have the original patterns used on them and therefore IMO fall in the custom gun category.

Because Tony is doing a great thing by keeping the Fox alive and in production, I personally wouldn't mind seeing a separate header listing on the site here for the CSMC Fox guns. Tony really did try and stay close to what Ansley had in mind, and from what I understand he did continue the serial numbers where Savage left off.

I know this:
I sure like to own one!!

DoubleGun · Post by **DoubleGun** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:31 pm

If Ansley was making his gun today it would look and feel like the CSMC Foxes. He would be taking advantage of modern metalurgy and manufacturing techniques while fitting and finishing the gun by hand to keep it a fine gun. While dealing with CSMC is another topic entirely, the gun Tony G produces is as good or better than the "old" Foxes. They are just the latest re-invention of a nearly perfect design - Phila; Utica; CT. It sure is nice to have a best quality shotgun being built to it's original American design in this country more than a century after it was first produced.
DoubleGun

Gmountain · Post by **Gmountain** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:34 pm

I don't think they are the same gun at all. The only thing similar is the name.

Sure, they are nice in their own right, but they could be called anything at all.

bbman3 · Post by **bbman3** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:04 pm

I know for a fact that some of the internal parts will interchange but have heard the hammers would not. Bobby

Gmountain · Post by **Gmountain** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:20 am

If I started a car company today and called it Duesenberg and built cars by hand, that looked like original Deusenbergs, would anyone consider them real Deusenbergs? Not likely.

Silvers · Post by **Silvers** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:16 am

Controversial subject. FOR ME the biggest part of the romance of old Foxes is the times and places they've seen, and the people who handled the guns. No modern gun can ever have that aura. Same with Deusenbergs, Packards or Chevy 409's for that matter. Frank

birdawg · Post by **birdawg** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:50 am

To me there are "original Foxes" and there are Tony's lovely recreations.

The fact that this discussion exist points out that they are not one and the same.

Dollar for dollar and the fact that you can just write a check for a new one, detracts from the allure of the new guns. I have owned a couple of Parker repos and to me they are the same, a nice product but not original.

I wouldn't kick one of Tony's guns out of the safe, but to me they do not have the history or mystic of a 100 year old gun.

Each to their own

Researcher · Post by **Researcher** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:30 am

IMHO Tony is building the guns Ansley wished he could build. To me they are far more "original" then the made in Japan Parker repros. As far as Tony building guns that don't match the "standard" A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue engraving patterns, the most eagerly sought after Ansley H. Fox doubles are those "Specials" and Burt Becker guns that don't match the catalogued styles.

Post by **fox-admin** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:03 am

This argument will never be won, everyone has there own strong opinion. I like them all, Philadelphia, Utica and New Britain. I really don't care if someone else thinks a CSMC produced Fox is a "true" Fox or not, I do and that all that's important to me.

bamboozler · Post by **bamboozler** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:36 pm

It seems the majority of those weighing in up to this point agree that the CMSC Foxes are indeed reproductions and are different than the original A.H. Fox Philly-built guns.

Most of us here are familiar with the "Challenge Cup", the friendly competition between the PGCA the LCSCA. The PGCA does not allow a Parker Repro to be entered in this competition. So it begs the question, if the AHFCA were invited to participate in the Challenge Cup or some other similar event would they allow a CSMC-built Fox to be entered? If they were allowed, I wonder how the boys from the PGCA and the LCSCA would feel about that?

Post by **fox-admin** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:00 pm

We allow the CSMC made Foxes in the Bo-Whoop and Ansley Cup Trophy. Get over it a CSMC is a Fox it's not a reproduction. Who cares what the Parker and LC Smith guys think. A CSMC Fox is every bit a Fox as a gun produced in Philly or Utica.

birdawg · Post by **birdawg** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:26 pm

Maybe we could put the CSmc catalog on the main site.

Post by **fox-admin** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:31 pm

birdawg Great Idea! I will take care of that! If a CSMC Catalog is on our web site a New Britain manufactured Fox MUST be a Fox.

A New Britain Fox has the same patent stamps as a Philly and Utica Fox. The Philly Foxes have a Philly address, Utica Foxes have a Utica address, the CSMC Foxes have a New Britain address, so? I will grant you the New Britain guns are not Vintage (old) guns, but they are Foxes.

birdawg · Post by **birdawg** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:58 pm

Cool, Now can we have a speical run of big W, XX, paper, 3", harden lead shot made?
Roll crimped of course.