Fox Collectors

I'm doing some ongoing pattern testing of overbored 20 gauge shotguns. No, I don't have a Super Fox 20 nor a lead on one. Just wondering if anyone's had a bore mike in a Super 20 and knows for sure what diameter they were bored to? Thanks. Silvers

Silvers;

I have a Fox HE 20 but no reliable, scientific method to measure the bore diameter. I could measure the diameter at the muzzles with a vernier but no way to get the bores before the chokes.

Any thoughts?

Jolly

Silvers;

Me again.

Here's pix of the breech and muzzle. I know that won't help with the bore diameter but you can see how much meat is in the barrels.





Ooopps! Bores are kinda dirty.

Jolly

Hello Jolly, sorry I missed the Foxfest at Marshfellow's and meeting you. Too many things going right before that and my wife had me on a short leash afterwards. Thanks for posting the pics. There's really no way of easily reading the bore diameter without using a bore micrometer. A more involved alternate would be to "slug" the bore with a soft lead plug, drive backward through the chamber end, then measure with a regular micrometer or vernier. I've done that in the old days for 20 bore using 16 gauge rifled slug projectiles scavenged from loaded shells. My bore mike is easier. The wall thickness of your 20 HE is substantial at the chamber ends but of course that's indicative of using a larger frame than the regular 20 gauge guns. Well, hopefully someone else will post with Super 20 bore measurements. I've been intrigued with overbore 20's for a few years now and just started doing more patterning with them. Thanks again. Frank

Silvers: Can't help you with a 20GA Super Fox bore diameter.
However, for comparison, my records show that my 1915 Sterlingworth 20GA had .616" in the left, and .618" in the right barrels. Measurement taken 9" in front of the standing breech. Used a Skeet's bore gauge. I would discount the .618" reading, as I'm positive that right barrel had been "cleaned up" by honing prior to my stewardship.
That 20GA SW was sold several years ago to a chum with a rubber band on it.

Some years back, McIntosh did a column on a 20-gauge Super-Fox in Sporting Classics. I have the reference down in Washington, but I'm now up in Kodiak, AK., for a month. As I recall one of the big dealers got one in and sent it to McIntosh and Headrick to play with for a few weeks. Prior to that I got into Randy Shuman's safe and measured the heck out his 20-gauge Super-Fox. Mike either used that info in a column or the book, don't now remember which.

Randy's gun had a brief but colorful history. I was down at a Roanoke, Virginia, gun show and a guy named Trout was trolling it around, claiming he wanted a lighter weight upland gun. I tried to trade him a Grade 1 NID 28-gauge but to no avail. So, I passed his name and number on to the Headricks. Well, Pop Headrick makes a deal with this guy to buy the gun, and sends me a thank you gift of a bottle of Wild Turkey for passing on the info to finally get him a 20-gauge Super-Fox. Then Trout renigs on the deal. A couple weeks later the gun is in Carolina Sporting Arms ad in the old Shotgun News. A month or so later, I'm up at Newville and it is in Randy's vault! The gun was a bit unusual in that it had a big block of a safety slide which apparently lettered.

Thanks for the replies. Dave, when you get back maybe you can look up that article and see if the bore diameter is mentioned. Ian, 20 bore is nominal .615" diameter so the regular 20 SW you referred to is pretty close.

Just for comparison here's two pics of a 32" 20 gauge over/under I'm fooling around with now. No - it's not a 20 Super Fox - but check out the heavy breeches and muzzles similar to Jolly's pics. That right barrel breech wall measures .240" thick at 2 and 5 o'clock at its very back end. Also check out the barrel spacing at the muzzle end. Frank

I curious if the Fox pics above are of unaltered barrels. It would make sense to me that the 20 Ga would have a gap between since the frame is the same used on 16ga with the barrels tight together at the muzzle. The barrels are supposed to converge at 30????yards. It might be a similar situation with the over under. Did Fox make 28 GA on the same frame? If so, I wonder if there is a larger gap on the 28 than 20??

JR,

I'm pretty certain the breech and muzzle of the HE 20 barrels shown in the pix above are unaltered.

Fox did not make a 28 gauge.

Jolly

The 20-gauge Super-Fox frame I measured was as wide and high as a standard 12-gauge frame, but is the length of the Ansley H. Fox 16-/20-gauge frame.

The center distance of the firing pins would determine the distance at the muzzle if the convergence distance is to remain the same. I'm very new at the Fox game and only have a few 16SW here to measure. I was under the assumption that the 20 used the exact same frame. This super Fox sounds quite different. I'm looking at the pics of the 20 above and thinking if I get bored enough a two barrel set would be fun to make. I'm guessing if a 28 was the second set the barrels would be too close together at the muzzle.

Unless...The 28 used 20 ga tubes.

Side by side double guns of quality are not made with parallel tubes nor are the barrels always straight. Convergence is not always a factor of distance between centers at breech and muzzle. Convergence is often a function of bending the individual tubes slightly to make them converge. Over under barrels are often straight and parallel like the (Perazzi?) pictured in the earlier post.

Probably the only set of straight Ansley H. Fox barrels out there is the second set for the "G.A.M." gun.

Silvers, I dont have an HE 20 but the 2 standard 20 bore original A grades I have have .616 and .618 bores. Paul

I'm briefly home in Washington, so I bit the bullet and thumbed through the boxes of Sporting Classics down in the storage room, until I found Mike's article on the 20-gauge Super-Fox. It begins on page 16 of the January-February 1996 issue, Volume XV, Issue 1. The gun Wes Dillon sent him to play with from Cabelas had bores of .624" and had .029" choke in both tubes.