Philly vs Utica

[bravo7490]

Hi folks,

I am totally new to this forum, and I'm sure the above has been answered, so if someone can direct me to that thread i would appreciate it.

Many years ago i had a Fox Sterlingworth 12 ga. Utica made, although I didn't know that until i went to sell it. I have always thought fondly of that gun, and regretted selling it (as I have almost all my guns). I now have a number of shotguns ranging in value from 1k to 4k, but not a single Fox.

So, in my old age I am looking to buy a Fox, 16 ga built on a 20 ga frame, so about 6 lbs, with 28" barrels. I just saw one on Guns International for about $1900, but it is Utica made. I think I would prefer a Philly made gun. There are no stock dimensions, which always puzzles me, because that's important.

So, my question is...is the gun worth it if i like the stock dimensions? I saw one recently that was restocked with a nice English stock for only $1200, but it was "sale pending" by the time I saw it and the sale obviously went through.

So, any suggestions as to where i should look, what to look for, etc.

Thanks,

Dennis

[Sporrns]

Words to live by - "Never 'dis' a "Ute' Sterly" - concensus of the BOD long before I joined them. Seriously though, start going to as many events (like the upcoming AHFCA Events and Actibities listed; also the smaller, less attractive shows, and always the smaller local auctions. There are LOTS of worthy Sterlys (and other grades) that show up at our events and occasionally at the "firehouse" gun shows. We scored 2 nice Sterlys, 1 a Philly 16 and the other a Utica 20 (really nice!) at the recent Old Baltimore Show. I rated it as a "true pair" or "bonafide double', since both were in the air at the same time (the seller's hands) after flushing (leaving the tabletop). Kevin

[bravo7490]

Storns,

Thanks so much for the info. Are there any events coming up in the L.A. area that you know of? I think I've only been to about two gun shows in my life. Except for one, all my shotguns were bought new. The one Beretta O/U 20 ga I have was bought from a friend, and i doubt it had more than a 100 rounds fired. It's a very old 686 with fixed chokes, and was made when Beretta actually used decent wood on their guns.
But, an old Fox has been in the back of my mind for years! So, I'm on the hunt.

Thanks,

Dennis

[bravo7490]

P.S.

What does "number 4 weight barrel" "Number 3 weight barrel" etc., mean?

Thanks,

Dennis

[Sporrns]

The numbers designate the barrel weights, going down from 4-wt. (the lightest) as on a 16-or 20- gauge upland gun with 26" barrels down to the 0-wt. (heaviest) as commonly seen on the big HE waterfowl guns with 32" barrels (some with 3" chambers).

[larrys]

Dennis, each gauge was offered in four different lengths. Each length of that gauge was offered in different weights. 4 being the lightest .

[FoxintheHenHouse]

bravo7490

Going to an east coast event from L.A. to look for guns is far from practical in my book. You will end up spending a high premium with the traveling, lodging, meals and wasted trips coming up empty. Whether you are looking for a Philadelphia or Utica gun, I like both, keep searching on Gunsinternational, Gunbroker and many Proxi-bid auctions each week. Also, visit gun shows close to home, although it may take several visits to find what you are looking for. Looking on the computer is the way to search the entire country from your own home. I have bought well over 75 guns for my "rotating collection" over the last 25 years, and bought only 3 guns face to face with the seller.

FoxintheHenHouse

[Researcher]

This is my everything you might want to know about Sterlingworths post that hasn't been posted for a while.

Sterlingworth -- When Ansley H. Fox, was forced to add a lower priced gun to his line of graded Ansley H. Fox guns, in 1910, he didn't want to detract from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. name, so they dummied up "The Sterlingworth Company." The first year’s guns, beginning with serial number 50,000, were marked as being "Made By The Sterlingworth Company, Philadelphia, U.S.A." Actually the first few hundred were marked "Wayne Junction" instead of Philadelphia. They even produced a separate The Sterlingworth Gun Co. catalogue for 1910. These guns were built under the same patents as the graded Ansley H. Fox guns. The main moneysaving features were an American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra) stock as opposed to the more costly European thin shell walnut (Juglans regia) stocks on the graded guns, and the "Sterlingworth Fluid Steel" barrels instead of Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. Workmanship on these early Sterlingworths was generally excellent, better than graded guns from the 1920's and 30's. The early "The Sterlingworth Company" guns had a rounded front for the side panel of the frames. According to my list of observed specimens that was changed to the same pointed profile as the graded guns by #51,301.

In 1911 this field grade gun was added to the A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue as the Model 1911. "Model 1911" is stamped in the forearm iron. (A very few graded guns made about this time are stamped Model 1910) The lowest Model 1911 serial number I've recorded is #53,140. All of these early Sterlingworths had a recessed hinge-pin head like Parkers, or Ansley's earlier guns made in Baltimore and the Philadelphia Arms Company A.H. Fox gun. The highest "pin gun" Sterlingworth serial number I've recorded is # 62,244. After that Sterlingworth hinge-pins are dressed smooth like the graded guns. When the small-bores (16- and 20-gauge) were added to the Ansley H. Fox line they were briefly referred to in some flyers as the Model 1912, but I've never seen one so stamped. Graded 20-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 200,000 and 20-gauge Sterlingworths 250,000. Graded 16-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 300,000 and 16-gauge Sterlingworths 350,000.

Most of the Philadelphia produced S-worths had the word "Sterlingworth" roll stamped on each side of the frame. After production moved to Utica, Savage started using a "Fox-Sterlingworth" roll stamp.

When the Sterlingworth came out in 1910 it had a price of $25. The price stayed at $25 thru 1916, then climbed quickly to $55 by 1919. A.H. Fox Gun Co. reduced the price to $48 in 1922 and again to $36.50 in 1926. Workmanship of course declined.
Parker Bros. introduced their Trojan Grade at $25.50 raising it almost immediately to $27.50 in 1912. The Trojan’s price climbed like the Sterlingworth to $55. Parker Bros. kept the price and the quality of the Trojan high and sold about 33000 total. Fox began cutting the price of the Sterlingworth and sold well over 100000.

Savage kept the $36.50 price until June 1932 when they upped it to $39.50. On February 10, 1936, they upped the price again to $42.85 (the digits 2 and 8 are transposed in McIntosh's book). On February 1, 1938, Savage tried a price cut and dropped it to $35. February 1, 1939, they upped the price to $44.75. January 2, 1940, up again to $48.50. January 2, 1941, up to $52.65 and June 16 up again to $56.50. January 2, 1942, up again to $64.95.

There were more 12-gauge Sterlingworths made than any other Fox double (some 94000, the great majority with 30- or 28-inch barrels), so unless in exceptionally high condition or with features such as automatic ejectors or factory original 26- or 32-inch barrels, they are about an $800 gun. It is impossible to truly evaluate a gun with out having it in hand, but average 12-gauge Sterlingworths are about $800 guns.

To Phily or Utica, That Is The Question – As with all American doubles earlier the Ansley H. Fox gun the better the workmanship, and quality of wood grade for grade. I have seen some pretty lame very late Utica Fox-Sterlingworths. I haven’t observed that much of a decline in the quality of the graded Ansley H. Fox guns built by Savage. They seem to remain pretty much the same as the late 1920s Philadelphia built guns, except for the uglier profile of some of the top-levers, and the bulkier forearm wood, which some like and some don’t.

The older guns often have more drop at heel than most people like today. The standard drop-at-heel for Philadelphia vintage Sterlingworths was 3-inches for 26-inch (Brush) and 28-inch (Field) barreled guns, and 2 3/4 - inch for 30-inch (Standard) and 32-inch (Trap). Names in () how factory referred to various barrel length Sterlingworths. Stock dimensions were to order on graded guns so anything is possible. I have a 1914 A-grade 12-gauge straight-grip that came from the factory with 2 1/4 inch drop-at-heel. A friend has an AE-grade 20-gauge with 3 1/2 - inch drop-at-heel! All the Savage vintage catalogues list 2 3/4 inch drop-at-heel as standard for all barrel length Sterlingworths. Later guns also tend to have their barrels a little less finely struck and hence weigh a bit more. While the Sterlingworth was always stocked with American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra), pre WW-I graded guns were all stocked in European Walnut (Juglans regia). After WW-I only XE-grade and above were listed in the catalogues with Juglans regia, and by the last Savage catalogue all mention of European Walnut had disappeared.

The change-over was gradual and occurs in 12-gauge guns through serial numbers in the high 12x,xxx range. The earliest Utica marked 12-gauge S-worth I've recorded is 128,419. (some outlayer 32-inch Savage marked guns in the 1220xx and 1230xx range) These early Utica guns are just like late Phily guns with the sleek toplever, slim forearm and capped pistol grip with the flat-topped diamonds for checkering. The barrel markings are in lettering at least twice as large as the Philly S-worths and is something like -- Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel -- Made for Savage Arms Corp., Utica, NY by A.H. Fox -- . I don't have one in front of me so don't hold my feet to the fire on the exact wording. The ugly Savage top lever, the bulky forearm, the coarse pointed checkering, the Special Alloy Forged Steel barrels and the capless pistol grip stocks seem to begin appearing in the 132,xxx range in 12-gauge Fox-Sterlingworths. The capless pistol grip is first pictured in the 1937 catalogue. By the 138,xxx range, capped pistol grips begin appearing randomly again!?!

Also you have to remember, that the workers were grabbing parts out of bins and assembling guns. I have a Fox-Sterlingworth Ejector Brush in the 160,xxx range and it has barrels marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel, the sleek Philly top lever and safety slide, the bulky forearm and the capped pistol grip stock with the coarse pointed checkering.

In 16-gauge S-worths the change seems to begin appearing in the 367,4xx range, but barrels seem to be still marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed steel into the low 370,xxx range. The change over in 20-gauge Sterlingworths seems to be spread out from the low 259,xxx to the high 262,xxx range.

So, the competing factors are... Early gun - better workmanship and wood quality, but short chambers and likely poorer stock dimensions. Later gun - better stock dimensions and modern chamber lengths, but poorer workmanship and lower quality wood.

The term "Deluxe" was never used in reference to Sterlingworth guns of the Philadelphia period, just Sterlingworth or Sterlingworth Ejector, brush (26"), field (28"), standard (30") or trap (32"). Beginning in 1930 Savage used the term Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe or Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe-Ejector to indicate a gun equipped with a recoil pad and twin ivory sights.

Fox-Sterlingworth Deluxe

Fox-Sterlingworth Deluxe intro January 2, 1930.jpg (29.71 KiB) Viewed 7289 times

These of course were options available on the Sterlingworth from the beginning, but the term Deluxe was purely Savage period term. Also the Deluxe was only cataloged for 28- or 30-inch barrels in 12-gauge and 28-inch barrels in 16- or 20-gauge. The extra cost for a Deluxe was $3, while buying the individual options of a recoil pad was $5 and the twin ivory sights were $1.50 in 1931. By 1940 Deluxe was still $3 extra but the individual options had dropped in price through the years to $3.50 and $1.10.

As to weights, it seems from my experience, you can find guns that fall outside the catalogued weights from most all periods. A 12-gauge 30-inch Sterlingworth was catalogued at 7 1/2 to 7 3/4 pounds in Philly period catalogues and 7 1/4 to 7 3/4 pounds in the Savage period catalogues. I have a Philly gun at 7 pounds 3.2 ounces and a Utica gun at 7 pounds 0.8 ounces, both original butt plates to muzzles.

You really need to evaluate each gun on its own merits, how it fits you, and meets your needs.

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

Also, Askins mentions (Modern Shotguns and Loads, 1929) that for the last 3 years or so the US makers started to hold their chambers shorter since the constriction made when shooting 2-3/4" loads in 2-5/8" chambers was found to improve patterning.

[bravo7490]

Wow. Thanks. I think I learned more today about Fox guns than in all my previous years...which are many.

[Jeff S]

Dave, thanks for sharing this information with us. You have devoted a huge amount of your personal time to researching these guns and it's nice that you share it so generously. Reading this information makes "us" feel knowledgeable, even though we haven't done the skunk work. A sincere "thanks" goes out to you. Jeff

[sidelock]

This is my everything you might want to know about Sterlingworths post that hasn't been posted for a while.

Sterlingworth -- When Ansley H. Fox, was forced to add a lower priced gun to his line of graded Ansley H. Fox guns, in 1910, he didn't want to detract from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. name, so they dummied up "The Sterlingworth Company." The first year’s guns, beginning with serial number 50,000, were marked as being "Made By The Sterlingworth Company, Philadelphia, U.S.A." Actually the first few hundred were marked "Wayne Junction" instead of Philadelphia. They even produced a separate The Sterlingworth Gun Co. catalogue for 1910. These guns were built under the same patents as the graded Ansley H. Fox guns. The main moneysaving features were an American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra) stock as opposed to the more costly European thin shell walnut (Juglans regia) stocks on the graded guns, and the "Sterlingworth Fluid Steel" barrels instead of Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. Workmanship on these early Sterlingworths was generally excellent, better than graded guns from the 1920's and 30's. The early "The Sterlingworth Company" guns had a rounded front for the side panel of the frames. According to my list of observed specimens that was changed to the same pointed profile as the graded guns by #51,301.

In 1911 this field grade gun was added to the A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue as the Model 1911. "Model 1911" is stamped in the forearm iron. (A very few graded guns made about this time are stamped Model 1910) The lowest Model 1911 serial number I've recorded is #53,140. All of these early Sterlingworths had a recessed hinge-pin head like Parkers, or Ansley's earlier guns made in Baltimore and the Philadelphia Arms Company A.H. Fox gun. The highest "pin gun" Sterlingworth serial number I've recorded is # 62,244. After that Sterlingworth hinge-pins are dressed smooth like the graded guns. When the small-bores (16- and 20-gauge) were added to the Ansley H. Fox line they were briefly referred to in some flyers as the Model 1912, but I've never seen one so stamped. Graded 20-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 200,000 and 20-gauge Sterlingworths 250,000. Graded 16-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 300,000 and 16-gauge Sterlingworths 350,000.

Most of the Philadelphia produced S-worths had the word "Sterlingworth" roll stamped on each side of the frame. After production moved to Utica, Savage started using a "Fox-Sterlingworth" roll stamp.

When the Sterlingworth came out in 1910 it had a price of $25. The price stayed at $25 thru 1916, then climbed quickly to $55 by 1919. A.H. Fox Gun Co. reduced the price to $48 in 1922 and again to $36.50 in 1926. Workmanship of course declined.
Parker Bros. introduced their Trojan Grade at $25.50 raising it almost immediately to $27.50 in 1912. The Trojan’s price climbed like the Sterlingworth to $55. Parker Bros. kept the price and the quality of the Trojan high and sold about 33000 total. Fox began cutting the price of the Sterlingworth and sold well over 100000.

Savage kept the $36.50 price until June 1932 when they upped it to $39.50. On February 10, 1936, they upped the price again to $42.85 (the digits 2 and 8 are transposed in McIntosh's book). On February 1, 1938, Savage tried a price cut and dropped it to $35. February 1, 1939, they upped the price to $44.75. January 2, 1940, up again to $48.50. January 2, 1941, up to $52.65 and June 16 up again to $56.50. January 2, 1942, up again to $64.95.

There were more 12-gauge Sterlingworths made than any other Fox double (some 94000, the great majority with 30- or 28-inch barrels), so unless in exceptionally high condition or with features such as automatic ejectors or factory original 26- or 32-inch barrels, they are about an $800 gun. It is impossible to truly evaluate a gun with out having it in hand, but average 12-gauge Sterlingworths are about $800 guns.

To Phily or Utica, That Is The Question – As with all American doubles earlier the Ansley H. Fox gun the better the workmanship, and quality of wood grade for grade. I have seen some pretty lame very late Utica Fox-Sterlingworths. I haven’t observed that much of a decline in the quality of the graded Ansley H. Fox guns built by Savage. They seem to remain pretty much the same as the late 1920s Philadelphia built guns, except for the uglier profile of some of the top-levers, and the bulkier forearm wood, which some like and some don’t.

The older guns often have more drop at heel than most people like today. The standard drop-at-heel for Philadelphia vintage Sterlingworths was 3-inches for 26-inch (Brush) and 28-inch (Field) barreled guns, and 2 3/4 - inch for 30-inch (Standard) and 32-inch (Trap). Names in () how factory referred to various barrel length Sterlingworths. Stock dimensions were to order on graded guns so anything is possible. I have a 1914 A-grade 12-gauge straight-grip that came from the factory with 2 1/4 inch drop-at-heel. A friend has an AE-grade 20-gauge with 3 1/2 - inch drop-at-heel! All the Savage vintage catalogues list 2 3/4 inch drop-at-heel as standard for all barrel length Sterlingworths. Later guns also tend to have their barrels a little less finely struck and hence weigh a bit more. While the Sterlingworth was always stocked with American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra), pre WW-I graded guns were all stocked in European Walnut (Juglans regia). After WW-I only XE-grade and above were listed in the catalogues with Juglans regia, and by the last Savage catalogue all mention of European Walnut had disappeared.

The change-over was gradual and occurs in 12-gauge guns through serial numbers in the high 12x,xxx range. The earliest Utica marked 12-gauge S-worth I've recorded is 128,419. (some outlayer 32-inch Savage marked guns in the 1220xx and 1230xx range) These early Utica guns are just like late Phily guns with the sleek toplever, slim forearm and capped pistol grip with the flat-topped diamonds for checkering. The barrel markings are in lettering at least twice as large as the Philly S-worths and is something like -- Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel -- Made for Savage Arms Corp., Utica, NY by A.H. Fox -- . I don't have one in front of me so don't hold my feet to the fire on the exact wording. The ugly Savage top lever, the bulky forearm, the coarse pointed checkering, the Special Alloy Forged Steel barrels and the capless pistol grip stocks seem to begin appearing in the 132,xxx range in 12-gauge Fox-Sterlingworths. The capless pistol grip is first pictured in the 1937 catalogue. By the 138,xxx range, capped pistol grips begin appearing randomly again!?!

Also you have to remember, that the workers were grabbing parts out of bins and assembling guns. I have a Fox-Sterlingworth Ejector Brush in the 160,xxx range and it has barrels marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel, the sleek Philly top lever and safety slide, the bulky forearm and the capped pistol grip stock with the coarse pointed checkering.

In 16-gauge S-worths the change seems to begin appearing in the 367,4xx range, but barrels seem to be still marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed steel into the low 370,xxx range. The change over in 20-gauge Sterlingworths seems to be spread out from the low 259,xxx to the high 262,xxx range.

So, the competing factors are... Early gun - better workmanship and wood quality, but short chambers and likely poorer stock dimensions. Later gun - better stock dimensions and modern chamber lengths, but poorer workmanship and lower quality wood.

The term "Deluxe" was never used in reference to Sterlingworth guns of the Philadelphia period, just Sterlingworth or Sterlingworth Ejector, brush (26"), field (28"), standard (30") or trap (32"). Beginning in 1930 Savage used the term Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe or Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe-Ejector to indicate a gun equipped with a recoil pad and twin ivory sights.

Fox-Sterlingworth Deluxe intro January 2, 1930.jpg

These of course were options available on the Sterlingworth from the beginning, but the term Deluxe was purely Savage period term. Also the Deluxe was only cataloged for 28- or 30-inch barrels in 12-gauge and 28-inch barrels in 16- or 20-gauge. The extra cost for a Deluxe was $3, while buying the individual options of a recoil pad was $5 and the twin ivory sights were $1.50 in 1931. By 1940 Deluxe was still $3 extra but the individual options had dropped in price through the years to $3.50 and $1.10.

As to weights, it seems from my experience, you can find guns that fall outside the catalogued weights from most all periods. A 12-gauge 30-inch Sterlingworth was catalogued at 7 1/2 to 7 3/4 pounds in Philly period catalogues and 7 1/4 to 7 3/4 pounds in the Savage period catalogues. I have a Philly gun at 7 pounds 3.2 ounces and a Utica gun at 7 pounds 0.8 ounces, both original butt plates to muzzles.

You really need to evaluate each gun on its own merits, how it fits you, and meets your needs.

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

Also, Askins mentions (Modern Shotguns and Loads, 1929) that for the last 3 years or so the US makers started to hold their chambers shorter since the constriction made when shooting 2-3/4" loads in 2-5/8" chambers was found to improve patterning.

Hi, newbie here, ran into this forum researching to purchase my very first 20g. Sterlingworth and need some help. I have read this article with great interest but it left me a little confused. The gun I'm looing at has the Philly. USA stamped on one barrel and Fluid Compressed Steel on the other and the serial #257,301 which appearently was manuactured sometime around 1924 according to the data I have read. However it has the bulky forearm as opposed to the sleek, splinter forearm. As for the top lever, I'm not familiar with them so I don't know the difference between the ugly Savage top lever or the sleek top lever. It also has the short 2 1/2" chambers. Can someone please elaborate and help me out with this so I can make an informed decision. I'm a pensioner and don't have money to burn on purchasing something that I will end up regretting later LOL.

[Maggiemollie]

Dave’s info is spot on.

My limited experience and I’m not a collector is unless you are buying a closet queen hardly been fired SW in dead mint original condition in original box (and yes someone on this site had a few like that), I wouldn’t worry about originality to a certain degree. I have a restocked and aftermarket forend SW no case coloring brush gun 12g 26” that comes up nicely and I shoot it well. I also have a far better original condition SW 28” with nice case coloring with the 3”+ DOH and have trouble shooting it (refer to hunting post going 0/9 on pheasant). Nice gun but……..I don’t enjoy shooting it, i shoot it poorly, but I enjoy looking at it.

I did get purchase a beat up 30” SW with F/F chokes and <3” DOH for $300 and actually shoot that somewhat respectable.

So in my ranking my best shooting SW is restocked to modern dimensions, next is one beat to hell but closer to modern DOH, and last is nicest original condition with crappy stock dimensions.

Lastly, none of these guns are going to net me thousands of dollars profit. I will be glad to break even.

[vaturkey]

This is my everything you might want to know about Sterlingworths post that hasn't been posted for a while.

Sterlingworth -- When Ansley H. Fox, was forced to add a lower priced gun to his line of graded Ansley H. Fox guns, in 1910, he didn't want to detract from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. name, so they dummied up "The Sterlingworth Company." The first year’s guns, beginning with serial number 50,000, were marked as being "Made By The Sterlingworth Company, Philadelphia, U.S.A." Actually the first few hundred were marked "Wayne Junction" instead of Philadelphia. They even produced a separate The Sterlingworth Gun Co. catalogue for 1910. These guns were built under the same patents as the graded Ansley H. Fox guns. The main moneysaving features were an American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra) stock as opposed to the more costly European thin shell walnut (Juglans regia) stocks on the graded guns, and the "Sterlingworth Fluid Steel" barrels instead of Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. Workmanship on these early Sterlingworths was generally excellent, better than graded guns from the 1920's and 30's. The early "The Sterlingworth Company" guns had a rounded front for the side panel of the frames. According to my list of observed specimens that was changed to the same pointed profile as the graded guns by #51,301.

In 1911 this field grade gun was added to the A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue as the Model 1911. "Model 1911" is stamped in the forearm iron. (A very few graded guns made about this time are stamped Model 1910) The lowest Model 1911 serial number I've recorded is #53,140. All of these early Sterlingworths had a recessed hinge-pin head like Parkers, or Ansley's earlier guns made in Baltimore and the Philadelphia Arms Company A.H. Fox gun. The highest "pin gun" Sterlingworth serial number I've recorded is # 62,244. After that Sterlingworth hinge-pins are dressed smooth like the graded guns. When the small-bores (16- and 20-gauge) were added to the Ansley H. Fox line they were briefly referred to in some flyers as the Model 1912, but I've never seen one so stamped. Graded 20-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 200,000 and 20-gauge Sterlingworths 250,000. Graded 16-gauge guns have serial numbers beginning with 300,000 and 16-gauge Sterlingworths 350,000.

Most of the Philadelphia produced S-worths had the word "Sterlingworth" roll stamped on each side of the frame. After production moved to Utica, Savage started using a "Fox-Sterlingworth" roll stamp.

When the Sterlingworth came out in 1910 it had a price of $25. The price stayed at $25 thru 1916, then climbed quickly to $55 by 1919. A.H. Fox Gun Co. reduced the price to $48 in 1922 and again to $36.50 in 1926. Workmanship of course declined.
Parker Bros. introduced their Trojan Grade at $25.50 raising it almost immediately to $27.50 in 1912. The Trojan’s price climbed like the Sterlingworth to $55. Parker Bros. kept the price and the quality of the Trojan high and sold about 33000 total. Fox began cutting the price of the Sterlingworth and sold well over 100000.

Savage kept the $36.50 price until June 1932 when they upped it to $39.50. On February 10, 1936, they upped the price again to $42.85 (the digits 2 and 8 are transposed in McIntosh's book). On February 1, 1938, Savage tried a price cut and dropped it to $35. February 1, 1939, they upped the price to $44.75. January 2, 1940, up again to $48.50. January 2, 1941, up to $52.65 and June 16 up again to $56.50. January 2, 1942, up again to $64.95.

There were more 12-gauge Sterlingworths made than any other Fox double (some 94000, the great majority with 30- or 28-inch barrels), so unless in exceptionally high condition or with features such as automatic ejectors or factory original 26- or 32-inch barrels, they are about an $800 gun. It is impossible to truly evaluate a gun with out having it in hand, but average 12-gauge Sterlingworths are about $800 guns.

To Phily or Utica, That Is The Question – As with all American doubles earlier the Ansley H. Fox gun the better the workmanship, and quality of wood grade for grade. I have seen some pretty lame very late Utica Fox-Sterlingworths. I haven’t observed that much of a decline in the quality of the graded Ansley H. Fox guns built by Savage. They seem to remain pretty much the same as the late 1920s Philadelphia built guns, except for the uglier profile of some of the top-levers, and the bulkier forearm wood, which some like and some don’t.

The older guns often have more drop at heel than most people like today. The standard drop-at-heel for Philadelphia vintage Sterlingworths was 3-inches for 26-inch (Brush) and 28-inch (Field) barreled guns, and 2 3/4 - inch for 30-inch (Standard) and 32-inch (Trap). Names in () how factory referred to various barrel length Sterlingworths. Stock dimensions were to order on graded guns so anything is possible. I have a 1914 A-grade 12-gauge straight-grip that came from the factory with 2 1/4 inch drop-at-heel. A friend has an AE-grade 20-gauge with 3 1/2 - inch drop-at-heel! All the Savage vintage catalogues list 2 3/4 inch drop-at-heel as standard for all barrel length Sterlingworths. Later guns also tend to have their barrels a little less finely struck and hence weigh a bit more. While the Sterlingworth was always stocked with American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra), pre WW-I graded guns were all stocked in European Walnut (Juglans regia). After WW-I only XE-grade and above were listed in the catalogues with Juglans regia, and by the last Savage catalogue all mention of European Walnut had disappeared.

The change-over was gradual and occurs in 12-gauge guns through serial numbers in the high 12x,xxx range. The earliest Utica marked 12-gauge S-worth I've recorded is 128,419. (some outlayer 32-inch Savage marked guns in the 1220xx and 1230xx range) These early Utica guns are just like late Phily guns with the sleek toplever, slim forearm and capped pistol grip with the flat-topped diamonds for checkering. The barrel markings are in lettering at least twice as large as the Philly S-worths and is something like -- Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel -- Made for Savage Arms Corp., Utica, NY by A.H. Fox -- . I don't have one in front of me so don't hold my feet to the fire on the exact wording. The ugly Savage top lever, the bulky forearm, the coarse pointed checkering, the Special Alloy Forged Steel barrels and the capless pistol grip stocks seem to begin appearing in the 132,xxx range in 12-gauge Fox-Sterlingworths. The capless pistol grip is first pictured in the 1937 catalogue. By the 138,xxx range, capped pistol grips begin appearing randomly again!?!

Also you have to remember, that the workers were grabbing parts out of bins and assembling guns. I have a Fox-Sterlingworth Ejector Brush in the 160,xxx range and it has barrels marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel, the sleek Philly top lever and safety slide, the bulky forearm and the capped pistol grip stock with the coarse pointed checkering.

In 16-gauge S-worths the change seems to begin appearing in the 367,4xx range, but barrels seem to be still marked Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed steel into the low 370,xxx range. The change over in 20-gauge Sterlingworths seems to be spread out from the low 259,xxx to the high 262,xxx range.

So, the competing factors are... Early gun - better workmanship and wood quality, but short chambers and likely poorer stock dimensions. Later gun - better stock dimensions and modern chamber lengths, but poorer workmanship and lower quality wood.

The term "Deluxe" was never used in reference to Sterlingworth guns of the Philadelphia period, just Sterlingworth or Sterlingworth Ejector, brush (26"), field (28"), standard (30") or trap (32"). Beginning in 1930 Savage used the term Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe or Fox-Sterlingworth-Deluxe-Ejector to indicate a gun equipped with a recoil pad and twin ivory sights.

Fox-Sterlingworth Deluxe intro January 2, 1930.jpg

These of course were options available on the Sterlingworth from the beginning, but the term Deluxe was purely Savage period term. Also the Deluxe was only cataloged for 28- or 30-inch barrels in 12-gauge and 28-inch barrels in 16- or 20-gauge. The extra cost for a Deluxe was $3, while buying the individual options of a recoil pad was $5 and the twin ivory sights were $1.50 in 1931. By 1940 Deluxe was still $3 extra but the individual options had dropped in price through the years to $3.50 and $1.10.

As to weights, it seems from my experience, you can find guns that fall outside the catalogued weights from most all periods. A 12-gauge 30-inch Sterlingworth was catalogued at 7 1/2 to 7 3/4 pounds in Philly period catalogues and 7 1/4 to 7 3/4 pounds in the Savage period catalogues. I have a Philly gun at 7 pounds 3.2 ounces and a Utica gun at 7 pounds 0.8 ounces, both original butt plates to muzzles.

You really need to evaluate each gun on its own merits, how it fits you, and meets your needs.

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

Also, Askins mentions (Modern Shotguns and Loads, 1929) that for the last 3 years or so the US makers started to hold their chambers shorter since the constriction made when shooting 2-3/4" loads in 2-5/8" chambers was found to improve patterning.

Hi, newbie here, ran into this forum researching to purchase my very first 20g. Sterlingworth and need some help. I have read this article with great interest but it left me a little confused. The gun I'm looing at has the Philly. USA stamped on one barrel and Fluid Compressed Steel on the other and the serial #257,301 which appearently was manuactured sometime around 1924 according to the data I have read. However it has the bulky forearm as opposed to the sleek, splinter forearm. As for the top lever, I'm not familiar with them so I don't know the difference between the ugly Savage top lever or the sleek top lever. It also has the short 2 1/2" chambers. Can someone please elaborate and help me out with this so I can make an informed decision. I'm a pensioner and don't have money to burn on purchasing something that I will end up regretting later LOL.

Without seeing the gun its hard to be for sure, but it sounds like someone could have swapped out a Savage made later type forearm for the original Philly Forearm. That said, most forearms should have the serial number stamped on them in front of the forearm metal. Post a few pics if you can.

[Silvers]

IMO descriptors like ugly, bulky and course are a matter of opinion and can be a discredit to Fox gun owners and would-be buyers. All these guns have a story to tell no matter when the Fox was shipped and those made during the tough times of the Great Depression might be the most touching. Regarding Sterlingworths the later Fox/Utica production guns generally have higher stock combs, and if the buyer wants to shoot/hunt the gun - as apposed to just showing it off at the club or in the den - I think many will find that the later guns are the better choice. frank

[vaturkey]

IMO descriptors like ugly, bulky and course are a matter of opinion and can be a discredit to Fox gun owners and would-be buyers. All these guns have a story to tell no matter when the Fox was shipped and those made during the tough times of the Great Depression might be the most touching. Regarding Sterlingworths the later Fox/Utica production guns generally have higher stock combs, and if the buyer wants to shoot/hunt the gun - as apposed to just showing it off at the club or in the den - I think many will find that the later guns are the better choice. frank

Agree with Frank. I have a 20 gauge Savage made Sterly that came with a 1 1/2" DAC and a 2 1/2" DAH. LOP was a bit short so I added a Hawkins rifle pad that then gave me just short of 14.5" LOP. Wonderful gun to shoot, plus it had factory 2 3/4" chambers. Winner Winner.