Fox Collectors

Non-tox shotshells are a new one for me; however gonna be required on my next trip. Any recommendation for commercially-available stuff that will be kind to my old guns, particularly 16 and/or 12 gauge? Thanks...

Trip for what ?

In most cases you won't go wrong with Kent

You can get Matrix - a tungsten alloy of Bismuth loads from them

South Dakota pheasants. Thanks.

Well

Only because you may get real world experience that way

I only shoot non tox at waterfowl, I would expect Kent to perform well on (as George Bird Evans called them - after missing with both barrels) flying circus wagons

But I am certain there will be guys that have field experience with SD birds

Looks like no 16's with the Kents and they really are a little stiffer than I'd like.

Oops; maybe they do have a bismuth load that might work.

Yes the TM is heavy stuff I buy the Kent Bimuth in 16 but that is still up there

I know the 16 Bismuth comes in #5 & 6

I would have to see a if the TM comes in 16 (I have only ever ordered that in 12)

Light non tox is hard to find. RST stocks some occasionally

Kent, Rio and RST all load 16ga Bismuth. I'm fairly certain that Kent dropped the 16ga from their TM line.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/KENT-BIS ... 263462.uts

https://www.ableammo.com/catalog/rio-bi ... 40338.html

http://www.rstshells.com/store/p/174-16 ... sg=variant

FYI- Kent's 16ga are mismarked. Dave Erickson posted his chrono results on the 16ga forum. They run approximately 1300 fps.

In case you're not familiar with Bismuth, Phil, it's roughly 10% less dense than lead. You might want to go one size larger than your normal size lead pellet to compensate.

Marcus R wrote:
FYI- Kent's 16ga are mismarked. Dave Erickson posted his chrono results on the 16ga forum. They run approximately 1300 fps.

Kent/Gamebore is a reputable company and I'd be very surprised if its velocity figure shown on shell boxes is inaccurate. The Kent Bismuth 16-gauge boxes I have are marked 1 ounce at 1200 fps.

Did Mr Erickson state he used a specialized shotgun chronograph? I ask this because regular shadow-type chronos such as made for single projectiles can be inaccurate when used with shotguns, wads and pellets that jump ahead of the shot charge.

The 16-gauge Super Speed "high brass" load circa 1950's was 1-1/8 ounce at 1295 fps. In comparison, 1 ounce at 1200 is going to produce way less recoil and in fact it's about on par with the period Field "low brass" load. And even if the Kent Bismuth is 1 ounce at 1300 the recoil will be less than the high brass load that I referenced.

Anyway, unless the gun was made super light weight the Kent Bismuth should work out just fine for most of us, in known to be safe/factory 2-3/4" chambered 16's.

Ordered some from Cabela's. They still show them at 1200fps, but according to the chart on Kent's website the 16's are rated at 1300fps. Maybe they're changed or updated the rating...

http://kentgamebore.com/products/bismut ... hells.html

I have used RST on a pheasant hunt in my A.H. Fox 20 Ga. Sterlingworth. They worked fine I think they have 12,16,20 & 28 Ga.If you go to their web site or call them you may be pleasantly surprised. My brother in law and I took 9 birds that day. We both used RST Non-Toxic Shells. Take care.

Fin, I use TM 1 1/4 oz #5 in my 16 for roosters that have been hunted hard on public ground. Of course my 16 is a M21.

Silvers wrote:

Marcus R wrote:
FYI- Kent's 16ga are mismarked. Dave Erickson posted his chrono results on the 16ga forum. They run approximately 1300 fps.

Kent/Gamebore is a reputable company and I'd be very surprised if its velocity figure shown on shell boxes is inaccurate. The Kent Bismuth 16-gauge boxes I have are marked 1 ounce at 1200 fps.

Did Mr Erickson state he used a specialized shotgun chronograph? I ask this because regular shadow-type chronos such as made for single projectiles can be inaccurate when used with shotguns, wads and pellets that jump ahead of the shot charge.

The 16-gauge Super Speed "high brass" load circa 1950's was 1-1/8 ounce at 1295 fps. In comparison, 1 ounce at 1200 is going to produce way less recoil and in fact it's about on par with the period Field "low brass" load. And even if the Kent Bismuth is 1 ounce at 1300 the recoil will be less than the high brass load that I referenced.

Anyway, unless the gun was made super light weight the Kent Bismuth should work out just fine for most of us, in known to be safe/factory 2-3/4" chambered 16's.

My reference to mismarked was the velocity listed on Cabela's website. It wasn't intended as a slur against Kent. I just wanted Phil to be aware of the difference in case it might affect his decision. As he pointed out, Kent lists them as 1300fps on their company's website. I can't speak as to why yours are marked 1200fps. It seems as though the boxes are now marked as being 1300fps.

Pic of Dave's setup.

The picture shows a relatively inexpensive screen-type chronograph with a short distance between the screens, and we don’t know how far that chrono was placed in front of the muzzle. Measurement error can also be induced because the screens will determine velocity based on the first trigger event which could be a leading/stray pellet or even the muzzle flash. Such setups often show much higher shotshell velocities than the true center of mass measurement.

Industry shotshell makers generally use induction coils to measure velocity in terms of center of mass. The SAAMI distances are exactly 18” from the muzzle and exactly 36” between the coils. Note that even 35" or 37" will result in an erroneous velocity reading by -/+ about 25 fps because the computer uses 36" in its calculation. That’s because the coils (even at 36”) aren’t really that far apart. Also confusing things for shooters is that some few shotshell makers have been known to "correct" those readings to muzzle velocity which would of course be higher. Speed sells.

Presumably, any commercial 16-gauge shotshell sold in the US today will develop no more than the SAAMI 11,500 psi max average pressure spec. Standard loadings for 16-gauge are: 2-1/2 dram-equivalent (DE) and 1 ounce @ 1165 fps, 2-3/4 DE and 1 ounce at 1220 fps, and 3-1/4 DE and 1-1/8 ounce at 1295 fps. All of those velocities are averages for the center of shot charge mass and as measured with inductive coils and the SAAMI protocol.

Net, if in fact the current Kent Bismuth 16-gauge loading is 1 ounce at 1300 fps as measured per the SAAMI convention, that would equate to a 3-1/8 DE load, still not quite the recoil of the Winchester Super Speed "high brass" loading cited here earlier. I never heard anyone complain about that load for pheasants or ducks when I was a kid.

Thanks again for all the input. RST does indeed have a 16ga bismuth available; 7/8oz at 1200 fps, #5 or #6 according to their site. They were out of stock when I started looking but are showing as in stock now. They are $65.00 a box of 25, which seems pricy but I guess is not a whole lot more than $15.00 for a box of 10 Kents. 7/8oz. might be fine but I'd really prefer a bit more for wild birds; I'm sure there a other schools of thought there.

Anyway, I've already placed a Cabela's order for a case of the Kents (was surprised yesterday to see that my local store has the 16's on the shelf; wasn't expecting that). Free shipping though, so it's the same difference. They should be fine in my Utica Sterly, and I suppose a few won't hurt my 1924 A grade. I've heard bird numbers are down anyway; who knows, I may not even get a shot !

Phil, I hope you have a great trip. Enjoy yourself. One of these days I'll make it out there.

Silvers, did you notice his box of Bismuth in the pic shows them as 1300fps loads? I'd have to pull up the old thread again to see if he mentioned his methodology for testing. I can provide a link if interested.

Marc