Fox Collectors

I am hoping to put my fathers 1927 20ga A Grade back in (limited) service and need information on today's ammo. The info on the factory production card lists Right M (Modified) and Left F (Full)

I have about 2 dozen shells that came with the gun. All are 2 1/4 - 7/8 - 5 or 6. All current ammo I see is 2 1/2, 2 3/4 and 3. I don't want to damage the barrels.

What 20ga ammo is recommended or best to use in these older Fox's? What are other members using?

2 1/4" ? is that on the box - or are you measuring the loaded shell- a common misconception with the length of shotshell is that the length is properly measured fired/new unloaded. a loaded shell, due the the crimp using up part of the hull will come up shorter

to answer your question you should have the chambers measured and the gun inspected by a qualified double gun experienced gunsmith

2 1/2 shells will do fine in a good condition gun of that vintage, anything short of heavy magnum loads would likely not hurt the barrels - but give some consideration to the old wood and look for lighter recoil- which comes from reduced payload and velocity

2 1/4 is the drams of bulk smokeless powder or the dram equivalent in progressive burning powder. By far the majority of Ansley H. Fox 20-gauge doubles were chambered about 2 3/8 inch with the 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell in mind, and by and large the heaviest load offered in the 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell was 2 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 18 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 7/8 ounce of shot.



One could get 20-gauge loads of 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20-grains of dense smokeless powder pushing that same 7/8 ounce of shot a bit faster in the 2 3/4, 2 7/8 or 3-inch 20-gauge shells.





In 1922, Western Cartridge Co. brought out their progressive burning powder loads called Super-X, and upped the 20-gauge to a 2 3/4 dram equiv. load pushing one ounce of shot. Western put their Super-X load up in their 2 3/4 inch FIELD shell.



When Remington and Peters followed suit, they also put their one ounce progressive burning powder 20-gauge load up in the 2 3/4 inch or longer cases. Winchester had a lot of their 20-gauge Model 12s out there made for the 2 1/2 inch shells, so they put up their Super-Speed 20-gauge one ounce load in both the 2 3/4 inch and 2 1/2 inch case --







All this a lot of babble to show what 20-gauge shells were available in North America at the time your gun was made, and what it has been exposed to over the last 89 years. Just to be nice to the old wood, and your shoulder, I'd stick to the 2 1/2 inch Lite 20s from RST.

Osthaus,

I don't have the boxes. I have attached a pic of a few shells where I copied the info from.

Anyone know where I can source a reputable gunsmith in the Chicago land area?

Thanks all for the detailed information.

Those shotgun shells pictured are both nominally 2 3/4 inch shells.

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914.



They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.