Why is the attendance at SxS events down?

[fox-admin]

It seems to me that the attendance at the SxS events I attend have been steadily gone down the last few years. I realize the scheduling conflict this last weekend played a role but many regulars did not attend either event. My take is a couple of issues. The events have become more focused on competitive events over the years in my opinion. That is great if you are a top shooter but most are not. The same 5 or 6 guys compete and the rest sit and cheer our favorite manufacturer. I think many average shooters don't want to spend $1.00 per target knowing they will never qualify. I think a not for score rate with self pulled targets for the first day would encourage more shooter/attendees to participate. Fewer competitive events/classes/gauges/gun styles would make the remaining events more important.
I would also like to see some new guns displayed by the Collector Associations. The same guys keep displaying their guns event after event. How about a display of fresh guns from an individual collector by association and a vote by all attendee's of the best display across all the Collector Associations.
Four day events are way too long for most folks and the cost becomes prohibitive for folks traveling. I think 2 day events would be better for vendors and most traveling shooters.
What say you????

[Jeff S]

Craig, great suggestions! For those of you who have never attended an event, let me assure you that they are outstanding! I think this is the friendliest group on the planet. Unfortunately, this past weekend I chose to sit on the shore of a lake, swatting mosquitos and wondering where all of the ducks had gone. And why did I do this? So I could write an article for the newsletter. Talk about "taking one for the team". I'll bet you guys had a great time at the shoot. Jeff

[fullchoke16]

Thanks for bringing this subject up Craig. The trip to eastern PA shoots are a 4 hour plus drive for me and while I enjoy the Bo Whoop targets, it's only 10 shots. I would consider myself a middle of the pack shooter on my good days so why would I pay a dollar a target to shoot when I know I'm just paying for a more talented shooters trophy/prize, etc. Also, while I enjoy looking at what the various dealers have (that I'll never see locally), the prices are way beyond my budget, so that's another waste of my time. I look at the Bo Whoop as a fund raiser for our organization so I have no problem shooting a few rounds with my old long barreled guns even knowing that I'm not going to be in the top three. However, without a reasonably priced ($35) round of 100 sporting targets available I won't be making the trip again just to shoot 20 or 30 targets in 20 minutes and then drive back home for 4 hours. While I shoot sporting clays and trap regularly in my local area I am sadly the only vintage trap gun and SxS shooter on the range most days and it gets a bit lonely, that is the main reason that I made a couple of trips out to the NE shoot. Whether I'm right or wrong, that's the view from here. Fred

[Silvers]

Just my two cents: I’ve seen these vintage shoots evolve over recent years as more and more NSCA Master and AA class shooters are getting older and less competitive against younger shooters with better eyesight and reflexes. I know many such gents who I used to see at registered tournaments and now are mainly doing SxS shoots; and let's face it, the average Tom, Dick & Harry SxS shooter is going to get his clock cleaned on any of the gauge venues unless he has a very good day and the top shelf shooters have bad ones. I think Craig’s questions are good ones. Why set up a vintage SxS event for those few top level shooters? It seems the majority of SxS shooters are hunters, casual shooters and collectors, and at any given event they will be shooting multiple guns with different stock dimensions and weights. And despite trying to do well when shooting their pet guns along with friends - it's usually at the tail end of the course when they “get into” that particular gun. The same thing happens over again at the next gauge event and with a different gun. $1.00 per target for this majority is way too much. I understand that scorers must be paid and that, in part, adds to what the club must charge for targets. Another cost factor that comes into play at times is that the club may have rented extra traps from firms in that business.

Although I’ve balked at it in the past I think that having a named “scorer” who is also a shooter on each squad, is the way to go. That concept includes having at least four or five shooters per squad, and not all from the same family group. Of course there will still be some cheating by guys who just have to come in with a good score no matter what, but it will be minimized. That would eliminate the expense of paid scorekeepers and if the club hasn’t rented extra traps for the event, the cost/target might be just a nominal increase over the regular rate that applies before or after the SxS event. That increase would pay for the admin expenses of advertising, soliciting vendors, arranging for food, keeping track of the scores, posting, etc. Also for the extra roving help on event days to get broken traps cleared or fixed in a hurry to avoid backups. The club is of course in business and must make a decent profit, and that should happen due to the larger number of shooters drawn to the event to reconnect with and shoot multiple rounds with friends, and to sell/trade/buy with good SxS oriented vendors who have paid for tables.

I also think the club should also offer a separate SxS venue for those top shelf shooters who want to participate, that’s scored by referees who have taken the NSCA test. That can be something like a Make a Break, Long Range birds or a tournament style 5-stand. Here those shooters will pay a higher rate/target for those dedicated traps and the scorekeepers. This can include a purse to be paid out to winners.

All told, these are personal thoughts and I certainly value others. We’re all in this together. But like Craig, I am alarmed when I know of many SxS shooters within a few hours of a vintage venue who can easily make a day trip to same but choose not to come. frank

[Fin2Feather]

For me it's a lot more than a day trip. The time and expense involved for me to attend such an event where they are typically located doesn't make sense. I expect that's the case for a lot of members. For those of you who live close, I got no excuses .

[FoxintheHenHouse]

For me, it's just "not my thing". I have been active in hunting for decades, collecting SxSs the last 15 years or so, but target practice, as I call it, never excited me. Hell, every time I have to sight in a new scope or pattern some shot shells, I can't wait til I'm finished. There is a clays shoot about 5 miles from my house and I have never even pulled in just to look, probably never will. Just my thoughts.

FoxintheHenHouse

[vaturkey]

I like to shoot my Foxes, but I like to hunt with the pup in the uplands even more. That said, the bigger issue is the distance to an event, followed by the cost associated with the shoots. Frankly speaking, going to the NE SXS for three days to include all the costs is probably a $500 investment. That's a week in a cabin in Maine chasing the king with my pup and my Foxes. My one event every year bar none is the NE SXS because the timing is good (June) and I am fortunate enough to spend a day or two with Dan Rossiter and swap gun stories and some good food and company. One of these days I'll attend the Southern, but up to now it has always conflicted with some long bearded Gobbler I seem to be chasing here in my home state of Va. Must say that one event is a blast and I for sure always say hello to all my Fox friends and drool over all their nice Foxes.

[Stan Hillis]

Some good ideas above. Here are some thoughts from a dedicated target shooter and hunter. While I agree that squads shouldn't be allowed that have all family, or all close buddies, on the same squad, I must stop short of endorsing a "dedicated" scorer on each squad. I would not want that responsibility. It is too hard for one person to see every chip that comes off of every target in a squad of 4-5 guns. When there are trained scorers provided by the clubs, even they make mistakes. Five sets of eyes are far better than one. So, what to do? Let the host club squad randomly. You get to meet people you would never have met, because most people will gravitate toward shooting with friends and buddies. But, a group of unrelated guys, all scoring the targets by consensus, are probably going to do it fairly and without cheating.

I could live with the costs of a three day shoot, a couple or three times a year. I thrive on competition, not that I think I'm going to win everything, but competing makes me better, and competing against shooters better than me makes me better faster. The inexpensive trophies and plaques mean little, but testing myself against other good shooters means a lot, to me. My problem with almost all the big S x S shoots within any reasonable driving distance of me is calendar timing. The Southern and the Fall Southern are both at my busiest times of the year. Planting and harvest. That's a personal problem I know, but a real one nonetheless. I get to the Fall Southern occasionally, but it's tough to pull off. Again, that's not an issue for anyone but me, most likely. On top of that, it's during dove season here, and for many the doves will take priority over clays and window shopping. I occasionally drive to a big NSCA event just to compete in the S x S event, then drive home. I punched into M class (donor class for most of us), then was downgraded to AA for lack of punches acquired, because I just quit attending the big shoots where I knew I had no chance of winning. I have a chance in the S x S events, and really enjoy them. But, again, they have to be within a reasonable drive for me.

It's so hard for a working man to drive from GA to VA, PA, NY or any of the northeastern S x S events. For much of the membership, it's just not feasible, or even possible. We can't, therefore, help with exhibits or serve as directors because of the requirement to attend at least one of these a year. It's frustrating I know, but it is what it is. That is why I am so appreciative of our directors and officers who are able to attend and serve like they do. For many of us, maybe even most of us members, the newsletter and this website are our lifeline to all that goes on. Please never underestimate the importance of those two things.

All my best, SRH

[Jeff S]

It's fun to read all of the responses to Craig's inquiry because it becomes obvious that people come to these events for a lot of different reasons. Some people want to look at guns, some people want to socialize, and some people want to compete. Trust me, I have a competitive side too. In addition to working my butt off at my business, I train to compete in running events. I'm not fast, but I ran 4 half marathons and 1 full marathon this year, and while I didn't win, I beat a heck of a lot of people. However, when I go to NE SXS event, it's purely for fun and relaxation. Yes, I shot 3 different courses, and yes I want to break birds, but I'm there for fun. I want to meet people with a common interest, I want to renew old friendships, and yes I want to fondle old guns. To me the shooting events should be "mixers". I like being with a group that visits as they walk from station to station, compliments each other on a good shot, and feels comfortable enough to chuckle at an easy miss. It brings a smile to my face when I think back to the 2015 NE SXS when an older woman (I'm being gracious) snapped at me, quite rudely, because I hadn't chosen the correct "break point". I politely smiled and shrugged my shoulders, but inside I said to my self, "Really lady? I'm on vacation!

I think the vintage firearms events are great simply because they aren't as serious as a traditional event. I'll continue to attend as family and work permits. I wanted to attend the "Tunnel of Trees" event 2 weeks ago, but my nephew got married that weekend and we all know how that goes. Wedding or shooting event?

[eightbore]

Jeff, how about "I come here to meet women, not to break targets." "Looks like I have met my goal."

[Jeff S]

LOL- I really wish I'd thought of that.

[Jeff S]

By the way.... Did anyone out there attend the "Tunnel of Trees" in Antrim county on the 16th? I would appreciate a report. Jeff

[rhpierce]

For my part, it's simply distance.

It seems that most of the sxs events are in places that would be more a plane trip than a drive and require multiple days, so far as I know. I'd love to be able to see tables of guns, walk around and break birds with people shooting sxs guns, and take it all in, but it means allocating the time and money to that over duck hunting, family vacation, etc. And I don't mind paying to shoot clays and having fun with it; I know I'm not going to be in the money, but being there is part of it.

Same reason I don't go to decoy shows; the larger, well-attended events are 15-20 hours or more from me.

Sad to say Arkansas isn't a big sxs area; people will come here to shoot ducks with them, but I just don't run into too many locals with them.

[arcmaster]

All;

I believe that there are a combination of factors that may be affecting attendance to include the following;

* Aging SXS shooters- The average age of an attendee to one of the events that I have ever been to seems to be even higher than that of trapshooting events. Nothing wrong with that, but it appears that we may be going slowly extinct.
* Economics- The younger generation who should be beginning to collect is not in the same financial position in many cases that we were at the same age. In addition, many people are now on fixed incomes as a result of the current administration.

The above are just a few thoughts, but I also know that prices are down slightly overall on investment grade firearms as well. I do not believe that there is one specific reason but a combination of many. Lots of great posts on this subject that all merit thought.

thanks to the BOD for hosting a great site for like minded people.

[Jim Cloninger]

They are too far and too expensive for one trying to live on SS.