Fox Collectors

I've recently been bitten by the Fox bug. After seeing some truly fine custom Sterlingworth shotguns by Doug Mann, SDHughes, Larry Peters etc I thought now would be a good time to build my own. I've built custom rifles for years and was never really exposed to any fine American custom shotguns until this year at the Custom Guild Show where my neighbor and I were just voted in as regular members. During the show I saw much interest in customized American doubles and would like to build a personal spec gun to show off my talents at the next years guild show. Being pretty new at the doublegun game I'd be happy to get some help from some of the members here.

I have a late model Sterlingworth here that I purchased with an understanding there would be an inspection period. It showed up today and the only problem I have with it is there is a very slight bulge around both barrels just on the outside of the forcing cones. You can't see it when looking at it at a right angle, but if you look down the the outside of the barrels there is a ripple on both barrels right at the forcing cone. It almost looks to me like the forcing cones were cut with a very dull reamer. There is another ripple on both barrels about half way down the tubes. Looks like bad polishing to me. Looking through the barrels there is nothing that you could see on the inside to match the slight bubble on the outside. Is it possible that the barrels were damaged by shooting the wrong ammunition? Is this bubble common on other Savage Sterlingworths?
Thanks for your help.

The barrels are the heart of any shotgun. The contours of Sterlingworth barrels were struck as well as the graded guns any bulges, dents or deep scratches should be cause to eliminate the gun from consideration as a custom project. There are too many good Sterlingworths out there to spend time on a gun with a dubious past.

Good morning James and welcome to our Fox forum. It's a rainy, dreary day today and I'm taking a break from tax prep so you'll get a long answer.

The bulges you described are not normal and they may be the result of firing 3" shells or really high pressure loads. I'm familar with machine shop practices and really doubt a dull cone reamer would bulge the barrels especially with pre-CNC machining in the 30's. Often bulges are more noticeable on the outside of the barrels than in the bores. It may be there is less light inside, or it's because of the smaller circumference inside than outside. Anyway, a good bore mike will tell the story. Of course the bulge will be a larger diameter than the leading or trailing bore in that area. Any good bore mike will read to .001" or better. I don't have an explanation for the ripples farther down the barrels. As Twice Barrel said, the Sterlingworths were finished quite well and it sure didn't leave the factory that way. Slight ripples can certainly be removed if the barrels are draw filed to reblue them; but the bulges are a much larger issue. If you don't have a good bore micrometer to check them out, I would suggest you decline the gun and ship it back. Likewise if you do measure a bulge. There are too many good Sterlingworths out there to screw around with bulged barrels. Silvers

Welcome to the group!

For what it's worth, I'll second, third, and fourth the comments on the barrels! Your building a custom gun so this means you'll be doing filing modifications to the frame that will eliminate flaws and pitting on it. The barrels are another matter, if they aren't right the rest of the gun is just parts.

Pass on this one and find the right one with good barrels for your project.

Before we close this discussion, I think we should get to the bottom of the situation of bulges in Fox barrels ahead of the chambers. Why is it that they are not measureable on the inside and such things don't seem to be prevalent in other makes of shotgun. If the bulge can't be measured on the inside, my opinion is that it is not related to "damage". No, I don't have the answer, but this has been discussed before regarding Super Foxes, and I have heard of more than one example. Measure the inside. If no bulge can be detected there, strike off the bulge and forget it ever existed.

Bill, I must have missed earlier discussions on Super Foxes. Sure, if no increased diameter can be detected in the bore ahead of the chamber, all should be good in that area and the ripple taken care of during re-striking. The forcing cone area could be a big question mark. If that's where the bulge is, measurement is a lot more difficult because of its taper and it would take a very skilled person and a good equipment to measure the diameter and length concurrently. Anyway, thanks for raising this issue. Frank

Frank, the discussion was brought up on another site by someone who had a Super Fox with bulges ahead of the chambers. This brought out comment from two others who had experienced the same situation. I had a conversation with a tall, lean gentleman with rather angular features once in Las Vegas when I was considering purchase of a big Fox that happened to have bulges ahead of the chamber. He mentioned that he had seen the same situation on other big Foxes did not regard it as damaged goods and recommended that I buy the gun. That gentleman seemed to know a little about Foxes. He said he was from Pennsylvania. I still have the Fox and it still has the bulges. I don't think they were caused by firing a shotgun shell in those enormous chambers. Just my take on the subject, and that of the gentleman from Pennsylvania.
'

Thanks for your replies. I ended up shipping it back. I guess I should get a bore gauge if I'm going to get into the SXS world of custom gunmaking. After spending some more time looking down the bores it looked like the polished section of the bore just ahead of the forcing cones had a very slight bell shape to them. I wonder if this was due to overloading or honing? Do you guys recommend any bore gauges? Does the cheap one at Galazan work well? Which gauges does it measure? Sorry about all the questions.
Thanks

That might be the best investment you ever make. Getting screwed on one gun with bad barrel(s) will more than pay for a good gauge. I have the dial indicator type that Galazan's sells and I like it. It measures 10, 12, 16, 20 and 28 gauge - but not 410. Note that it doesn't have spring loaded balls that move in and out of the stem, as on some other types. I had one like that earlier and the measurement balls were always hanging up. You zero the Galazan type to a standard for each gauge, and it holds that measurement until you open or close it manually to adjust to the bore variation. You can feel and read the slightest variation, .0005" (five-tenths) or even less. Personally I wouldn't buy a short gauge that's only 6" or so long. Often there's a big variation along the bores if they've been honed in the middle section, and a short 6" gauge can't measure that deep. My Galazan bore gauge has payed for itself several times over. Silvers

I have used the Galazan micrometer with about a 16" range that he sells for about $125. The 12 gauge model will measure nominal bores from 10 to 16, and 16 gauge chambers. It will not measure early Parker ten gauge bores which are about .800 or bigger. I have used this gauge for more than 15 years. Brownell sells a nearly identical gauge for a few dollars less. If you are going to submit a custom shotgun for guild membership, I would recommend that you be able to measure bores. The 20 and 28 gauge version of the same instrument will measure those gauges. Two gauges and you can measure everything but .410. I use a "small hole gauge" and a zero to one inch micrometer to measure .410 bores and chokes. I'm sure every rifle maker has a drawer full of small hole gauges. Good luck.

eightbore wrote:If you are going to submit a custom shotgun for guild membership.............

I just got accepted this year at the show. After seeing all the interest in doubleguns at the show, I thought it would be wise for me to break out of the rifle/only world. Hope to double my customer base. No pun intended. I would like to build my own first and see how it goes. I'm pretty picky about my projects and just want to get all the RIGHT information before I get started.

Here's a few pics of my rifle work. Both wood & metal.

Nice rifle, James. Some of us have interest in custom rifles as well as custom and collector shotguns. I have a question for you. What are the sources of neat custom rifle accessories like swivel bases, high dollar scope mounts, high quality iron sights, and other custom features we see on guild guns? These sources seem to be kept close to the vest by custom makers. Maybe you could suggest some websites where we could shop for some of these items.

Very nice rifle with exceptional craftsmanship and attention to detail. I'll look forward to seeing what you do with a custom Fox.

Back to the barrels. In my opinion you did right by sending the gun back. Barrels are the heart of a double gun and one little slip-up can make them into just two pieces of pipe real quick.Silvers and Eightbore give good advise for measurement intruments.

Here's a story that just unfolded this week. I found a very nicely restored Parker DHE 20ga at one of the big houses. While I was there they looked it up in the Parker book and let me see it was correct to factory records for configuration. We got out the bore gauge and measured choke constriction and all was the way is should have been. But they wouldn't let me handle the bore gauge. I had the gun sent to my FFL in my home state with the understanding of an inspection period.

When the gun came I went over it with a fine toothed comb and fell in love with it until I got out the bore gauge. When I measured the right barrel much to my surprise the chokes were right on what we measured while in the store. Then I decided to measure the full length of the gauge and then came the big shocker, at about seven inches in the gauge snapped to full capacity just like was before it entered the barrel and could not measure the bore I.D.

I suspect that someone honed the daylights out of it trying to remove pitting. I don't know for sure what happened all I know is it is on the way back to the dealer as I write this.

Get a good bore gauge, it will save you a bundle in the long run!

JR, I am trying to locate your specialty and contact information on the ACGG website and I see that they have not included your information. Please contact them and see if you can get something up and running. Thanks.

Silvers wrote: I have the dial indicator type that Galazan's sells and I like it. It measures 10, 12, 16, 20 and 28 gauge - but not 410. Note that it doesn't have spring loaded balls that move in and out of the stem, as on some other types. Silvers

Slivers
Is this the one you're talking about?
http://www.csmcspecials.com/ProductDeta ... Code=T0170
It's a little pricey. Think the ~ $125 version would get me by? Do you have any closeup pictures of the measuring part of yours? and the whole kit pic? The pics on the Galazin site are pretty shabby for the prices they charge. I like to see what I'm paying for.

eightbore wrote: What are the sources of neat custom rifle accessories like swivel bases, high dollar scope mounts, high quality iron sights, and other custom features we see on guild guns?

8bore
How about these? I bought them in kit form from Speedy Metals. They sell Bar stock in many different grades whatever length you want it! Seriously though you might check NECG. They have some nice custom sights. I made these from scratch.

The ACGG contact info isn't updated yet. It looks like they updated all the member info a few weeks before the new members were voted in. Wish they would have waited until after the show. If you click this link there's a pic of my contact info. I use a JPEG to try and hide from the internet spiders. http://members.sdplains.com/chico/sign.jpg