RST Shells / Pattern analysis

[Jeff S]

I know that a large portion of the Fox Fraternity are devoted users of RST Shells. Personally, I have used the 2 1/2" shells in my 20 ga. Sterlingworth and I have, on occasion, used the "spreaders". The folks at RST advertise that the "spreaders" will shoot a wider pattern so that marginal marksmen such as myself might hit more partridge. I never really knew if the spreader theory worked, so Friday, I decided to test the shells. As some of you know, I brought pattern analyzing software with me to Hidden Hollow. A friend of mine helped develop this software and he installed it in my Ipad. He gave me some blank targets and asked me to test it out to see if it worked. I set up the target in Earnie's 5 stand area and then paced off 40 yards. I loaded the left barrel of my Fox C grade (formerly Toolman's C grade) with a Winchester 1 oz. #8 shell. I took a shot, and clicked a picture with my Ipad. The software said that 61% of the load hit within a 30" circle. Let's call that "modified", or maybe "improved modified". I then loaded my left barrel with a 1 oz., #8 RST "spreader". I took a shot and clicked a picture with my Ipod. This time it said that 44% of the load hit within a 30" circle. Let's call that "improved cylinder". I am now officially a firm believer in Morris Baker and the RST spreader shells. If you have a tightly chocked Fox and you want to shoot a wider pattern, RST spreaders work, but you still have to hit the bird. A few of you asked for information on the software. I believe it can be found at Targettelemetrics.com.

[Silvers]

Jeff, it was great to meet you, shoot and talk Foxes. And thanks so much for posting this info.

Gents, I wasn't at the testing that Jeff writes about here but I did sit at lunch with Morris (owner of RST) and Jeff while they talked about their earlier testing and the software. It sounded like RST will be getting the software for its factory use. Jeff showed me the data stored on his iPad and now I'm hot to get the app. I've counted too many patterns in the past, and this will make it soooooo very easy. One feature not mentioned yet is the software visually shows the Point of Impact relative to the "aiming" point. Well the kids got us an iPad for Christmas, and now I'll have to get our grandaughter to help me load the app.

[Jeff S]

Silvers, thanks for the nice comments and I really appreciated your professionalism and knowledge. One thing I should have mentioned is that no test is credible without a trustworthy witness. Don (Kimber06???) witnessed the test. We also tested his A Grade and it shot 55% in the 30" circle with the right barrel and 69% in the circle with the left barrel.

Some of you other experienced members may have also noticed that I was using Winchester shells. Please forgive me for being naive. The Father of Foxology explained to me the perils of using Winchester shells in a Fox and I won't do it again.

[vaturkey]

Silvers, thanks for the nice comments and I really appreciated your professionalism and knowledge. One thing I should have mentioned is that no test is credible without a trustworthy witness. Don (Kimber06???) witnessed the test. We also tested his A Grade and it shot 55% in the 30" circle with the right barrel and 69% in the circle with the left barrel.

Some of you other experienced members may have also noticed that I was using Winchester shells. Please forgive me for being naive. The Father of Foxology explained to me the perils of using Winchester shells in a Fox and I won't do it again.

Nothing wrong with the right winchester shells IMO. If you were shooting 12 gauge Winchester makes an Xtra-lite load in 12 gauge that pushes 1 oz of shot out at circa 8000 PSI. That will work fine in a 12 gauge Fox with short chambers. Many of the folks on the Parker forum are shooting the exact load out of their damascus grade guns. That said, 20 gauge factory 1 oz loads got a lot of punch and I agree they are not load of choice to shoot out of a short chambered 20 gauge Fox for sure. I shot RST's out of my 20 gauge last week at Ernies and it has 2 3/4" chambers, but RST's really make that light gun (5 3/4 lb) a joy to shoot on the range.

[Jeff S]

Vaturkey - thanks for the feedback. Yes, I was shooting the Winchester Xtra lite, and yes they do shoot nice. However, Friday morning I attended a seminar on reloading and I learned that Winchester primers are made of steel. The shells fire nice, but when it comes time to "break" the gun to remove the shell, the steel primer can be a little rough on the Fox firing pin (hammer). Personally, I have not done any research on this matter. However, I had recently switched to Winchester, and I had a very difficult time opening my Sterlingworth. I did not have this problem when I was using Remington shells. On the other hand, the Winchester shells seemed to work fine in my A grade. This week I'll go back to the Remington shells with my Sterly and see what happens. Prior to Friday I had never heard about the different primers, but the professor seemed to be quite knowledgeable so I took his advice to heart.

[Silvers]

Tom ..... Jeff wasn't referring to the breech pressure of the Winchester factory shells but rather to the primers. As far as I know all modern primers have steel or brass cups (part the firing pin hits) but there's a difference in the thickness/hardness of the metal as used by different makers. Winchester primers work well with easy opening in some Fox guns, but others will lock up tight and have to be forced open across the knee. That's because of the design of the Fox firing mechanism and it would take a long technical treatise to explain why. Short version is that Jeff was using Winchester factory shells and his gun was in between - it was hard to open but not locked up. GENERALLY Remington-primed shells are easy opening in a Fox. Likewise with Cheddite primers as used in RST factory shells. Again, some Foxes will open easily with Winchester-primed shells, but most like Remingtons better. This carries over even to modern New Britain Foxes as the CSMC factory recommends the use of Remington shells in its guns. In fact just the other day I was shooting a New Britain 20 bore Fox with a mix of Remington STS and Winchester AA shells and she was sticky opening with the Winchesters.

[vaturkey]

Tom ..... Jeff wasn't referring to the breech pressure of the Winchester factory shells but rather to the primers. As far as I know all modern primers have steel cups (part the firing pin hits) but there's a difference in the thickness/hardness of the steel as used by different makers. Winchester primers work well with easy opening in some Fox guns, but others will lock up tight and have to be forced open across the knee. That's because of the design of the Fox firing mechanism and it would take a long technical treatise to explain why. Short version is that Jeff was using Winchester factory shells and his gun was in between - it was hard to open but not locked up. GENERALLY Remington-primed shells are easy opening in a Fox. Likewise with Cheddite primers as used in RST factory shells. Again, some Foxes will open easily with Winchester-primed shells, but most like Remingtons better. This carries over even to modern New Britain Foxes as the CSMC factory recommends the use of Remington shells in its guns. In fact just the other day I was shooting a New Britain 20 bore Fox with a mix of Remington STS and Winchester AA shells and she was sticky opening with the Winchesters.

Thanks Frank. I fired quite a few of the Winchester shells out of the Abbygun and had zero problem with the hard opening. I did however fire some standard 2 3/4" 20 gauge shells out of my Fox that is chambered for 2 3/4" shells (Winchester) and encountered the hard to open. I surmised at the time that I wasn't holding the lever far enough over to the right and that was my problem. Perhaps I was incorrect. I'll check it out at the range the next time I go out. Let there be no doubt the easiest shell for use on any Fox is the RST. Was an absolute pleasure shooting them at Ernies last weekend out of my light Fox.

[mike campbell]

I can't argue the observation that some guns are difficult to open with Winchester ammo, but I'm skeptical of the assertion it's because Winchester primers are "steel."
All 209's have a steel body and can be picked up with a magnet. But the center cup, the portion struck by the firing pin, is not magnetic. NO rifle/pistol primer I've ever encountered is magnetic. They consist of a primer cup and anvil, just like a 209, but are absent the surrounding steel body.

I don't have any current manufacture W209's but with a small pointy magnet, like a screwdriver tip, it's easy to distinguish between the magnetic skirt and non-magnetic center of a spent 209 primer.
I find it hard to believe that Winchester would recently begin making the 209 cups of steel, unlike every other primer in the world.

[Silvers]

I edited my post to correct an omission and a typo. See correction above.

The Winchester and Remington shotgun primers I've checked have what looks like brass primer cups, but Cheddite (as used in RST shells) and Federal paper shell primers appear to have steel cups with plating or similar to keep them from rusting.

Update 6/18/15 - more checking of world primers that are common here in the eastern US ..... Fiocchi shotgun primers also have plated/steel cups. It's also steel for Rio shotgun primers.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Good info in this thread. Jeff, can you message me info on the app please? Now I know why Frank is collecting spent hulls when we shoot. BTW, those spreader loads work best in the tight choked barrels. M to F and they just pop!! Better than IC/SK etc. And, those spreaders are great on stoat in the winter!! Won't ruin the pelt.

[Vixen Magnet]

Jeff, I understand that the way that software package works you can also analyze patterns for voids and target survival paths. What did the RST spreader patterns show with regards to voids. I often shoot them at close quick targets and could really use another excuse.

[Jeff S]

I have to be honest, I don't know. When Mike (one of the developers) was showing me how to use it, we had two different software packages. The one he gave me to experiment with is on my wife's iPad. He also had his laptop with him. With the laptop version, you could enter the dimensions of your target and it would map the voids. I begged for this feature! But he said it wasn't available on the IPad version, it's only available for laptops. I can't buy a laptop because I've spent all of my money on Fox shotguns (and laptops for my 3 daughters, but they won't share). I've missed more birds than I've hit and I would have a difficult time blaming the ammo or the choke. It's usually the sun, the rain, the leaves, I'm not paying attention, or I'm just too darned slow.