Newbie with Questions about my fox/pictures inside

[zukinut]

Hello,

My name is will. In 99 I inherited my great grandfathers shotgun as a graduation gift. It is a Philly made sterlingworth. It is a 16 ga with a 30" barrel and has auto ejectors. It is 100% original sans the butt pad. I came to the conclusion that it is an original piece with no reworking or restoring from pictures and information I've read on this website.

The serial is 36x,xxx,

The story behind the gun is fairly simple. Around 1919 my great grandfather bought his farm, outside of philadelphia pa. Soon thereafter (actual timeframe is unknown) he bought this shotgun. He was an avid bird hunter and used this gun both in sport and to feed the family. He was a very OCD type of person and it shows on the condition of this gun. It shoots amazing, Altho finding shells for it is getting hard.

I know that this gun is nothing special or rare. But I was wondering if any of y'all would happen to know or know where I could look to see how many like it were produced. What the year of production actually is and if it is of any value at all.

It will never be for sale but I would like to know the "facts" about the gun so when I pass it to my son I can tell him those facts.

Thanks for your time and any and all help.
Will

[Ithaca33]

I'd suggest getting a letter from Mr. Callahan. It's the best way to find the provenance you desire on an ungraded fox. There are directions for requesting a letter on the homepage of this site. Enjoy the sterly she sounds like a rose.

[zukinut]

On the homepage I see a place to join a "club". Is this what you speak of when saying to get a letter?

Is there any real value to a sterling worth?

I truely enjoy shooting this gun. I'm a lefty and i can shoulder it very quickly. Unfortunately,it has to sit out this years dove season opener because I can't find any shells locally.

Thanks again
Will

[Researcher]

Your gun sounds nice. We's love to see some pictures of it. A 16-gauge Sterlingworth with ejectors and 30-inch barrels is certainly one of the less often encountered variations. Unless someone, someday, gains access to the production cards in the archives at Savage and has the patience and wherewithal to tabulate the records, we'll never know exactly how uncommon. Smallbore (16- and 20-gauge) Sterlingworths are drawing good money in the marketplace. Long barrels and ejectors up the ante even more.

It would be nice if you joined the organization, but this is the link for getting a letter from the Savage historian --

http://www.foxcollectors.com/ah_fox/con ... tters.html

[zukinut]

I'm by no means a "gun guy". I can Hold my own accuracy wise and have a few neat guns but I honestly can't tell the difference in quality etc.


I know that fox's are amazing quality, but what sets them apart from say my 20 ga Stevens side by side. Visually the fox is nicer and I'm sure the metallurgy is as well. Jus figured I would ask what sets them apart.

Thanks again for all the help.
Will

[Stan Hillis]

Will,

You don't have to let it sit out the dove season for lack of shells. Here's two places that sell low pressure 2 1/2" shells for your 16 that would work perfectly.

http://www.rstshells.com/

http://www.polywad.com/

Both carry spreader loads in low pressure, and are high quality. I just got a flat of the Polywad Vintager spreader 16 ga. loads for my tight choked L.C. Smith. While it has been shown repeatedly that one can safely use 2 3/4" shells in the early, "short" chambered guns, and I have done so in my own many years, it is incumbent upon the owner to make certain it is sound for use. It is also important that lower pressure shells be used than the over-the-counter WalMart variety of stuff, which usually have pressures jacked up high enough to cycle all the uncleaned and poorly maintained semi-autos out there.

Post pics if you can, we'd love to see her.

SRH

[zukinut]

I think I can use a 3" shell in it. Or does that 3 stamped under the lift off wood piece (sorry for terminology) mean something else?

I looked on the rst site and it had many different loads available with 8 shot. Is one better than the other for my fox? Again I apologize for my ignorance, but I want to learn. If you ever need a custom 4wd buggy built, I can help, haha.

I had a gunsmith check it out when I first received it. He said that he personally had never seen barrels in such good shape. Especially in a weapon of its age.

Thanks for the link for the shells.

I'll try to post a pic or 2 first of next week.

Will

Will

[ROMAC]

The 3 stamped on the barrels under the forend is the weight of the barrels, not the chamber length. Typically 1 through 4 with 4 being the lightest. As a rule, you should never fire 3 inch shells out of your Foxes but I think you said yours is a 16 so the point is moot. They do not make 3 inch 16 gauge shells.

As sugested go for low pressure shells from RST or Polywad. Until you can have the chamber measured by a competant gunsmith I'd stick to 2 1/2 inch shells.

[zukinut]

When I had the gun checked when I first got it, the smith said I could fire modern loads thru it. It has had 2 3/4 thru it since I've owned it, but if it's a bad idea to continue to do so, I will stop.

The gun "blowing up" wouldn't be very conducive to me being able to shoot it.

Will

[TOOL MAN]

"Zuk",

These are the stories we love to hear!! Original condition, family guns passed from one generation to the next and living in the Philly proximity to boot. I concur with "researcher" that a 30"---16b with ejectors is not 'common' by any stretch. Wish you could show us some pics. If you are not familiar with posting images feel free to email them to me at: cambo6789@gmail.com
and I'll do it for you. You have a wonderful and unique family heirloom. Treasure it.-------TOOL

[zukinut]

Forgot to say, zukinut is my name on all forums I'm on. I'm a builder of rockcrawlers and my first and the one I'll always keep is a Suzuki samurai.

It's currently in it's case in the trunk. Taking it to show my father in law. Was gonna do some more dove hunting with it, but after reading on here, I'm afraid to use 2 3/4 shells.

I'll try to post up some pictures soon. Hopefully yall will say it's as original as I believe it is.

Will

[Researcher]

No one can tell you over the internet what ammunition may or may not be safe in a given shotgun.

"Modern" high velocity shotshells loaded with progressive burning smokeless powders came on the scene here in North America in 1922 with Western Cartridge Co.'s introduction of their Super-X loads in their 2 3/4 inch Field shell in 12- (1 1/4 ounce) and 20-gauge (1 ounce).





The 16-gauge Super-X load (1 1/8 ounce), put up in their 2 9/16 inch Field shell was on the market by the next year. By 1924 or 5 Western had also added the 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X load carrying 1 3/8 ounce of shot put up in their Record case --



In 1925, Peters Cartridge Co. introduced their line of similar progressive burning powder High Velocity loads. And, that was about the same time that SAAMI specs came to govern North American ammunition standards.

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. From the 1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue --



They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the recently published book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A recent issue of The Double Gun Journal carried an article on tests showing no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

[zukinut]

Thank you for the post on the ammunition. Once my father in law and his father saw the fox, they weree less than happy with me that I had shot it at all and were even more upset that I had plans to do more hunting with it. I will buy the 2 1/2 shells for it when I get back home.

I will post some pictures when I get back home after the holiday as well.

I continue to read this forum about these shotguns. They have a very rich history.

Thanks again
Will

[Stan Hillis]

Foxes are tough, Will. If it is in as good a condition as you say I doubt if you hurt it. I shot my first Sterlingworth a whole dove season with off the shelf 2 3/4"- 1 1/8 oz. loads with no problems. Remember, the two things we typically want to lessen in the old doubles is pressure and recoil. With Foxes that are in good condition, and that have original wood, the recoil is the biggest issue, IMO. They were made with modern steels and can probably handle the pressures in the 9000+ psi range okay, from time to time. But, the heavier recoil from regular use of the 1 1/8 oz. (and up) loads, in the regular framed Foxes, can cause battering of the wood where it meets the rear of the receiver. Many years of wiping down with oil, and sometimes downright abuse, will weaken the fibers of the wood, and splitting and/or loosening of the butt to the receiver can result. This can be prevented, or very much forestalled, by using light recoiling (7/8 oz. to 1 oz.) loads.

Point is, there's no need to subject them to that abuse when there are low pressure, low recoil loads available that can be delivered to your door, or you can reload them as I and many others do to save money.

Take some pics of your first limit of doves you take with it, for us. We'll be waiting!

SRH

[zukinut]

I found some federal 1 oz 8 shot. 11/2 dram for a 1165 fps. Damn rains this year have caused a serious "drought" in doves. Scouted today and only saw 15 doves in about an hour. I'm gonna take it to the field tommorow along with some random 12 ga. If there are enough birds I'll get it out.

I'll post pictures ASAP.

Thanks again

Will