Fox Collectors

As many here know I've had a keen interest in 12 gauge Super-Foxes for years now. And overall it's my opinion that any/all Supers whether 2-3/4" or 3-INCH have a wonderful story and are still very effective in the blinds and really, for any long range shotgunning. Lately I've made a study of those originally made for 3-INCH shells and I've done numerous casts of their chambers and forcing cones. Along the way I've seen many that were opened to regular 3-inch from original factory 2-3/4" chambers (many of which were then fake stamped - some very cleverly, others not so well). I've also seen some that had their special factory 3-INCH chambers redone with regular 3-inch reamers - no doubt to keep from having to push some shells into the unique/tight factory chambers. Some day I'll do a story on this work.

Based on this research I had three precision gauges made up to verify absolutely original Fox factory 3-INCH chambers in 12 gauge Super-Foxes. Why is this important? Well the guns were regulated with factory chambers, forcing cones, bores, choke leades and choke constrictions - and all must be "factory" to define originality. It seems that chambers were often altered. For example just recently I used my gauges to measure two Supers that were reportedly 3 inch guns, and both were redone. Another one I measured checked out as absolutely original. Well, maybe sometimes it's better not to know .....

Anyway, I'll have my gauges at the NE Side by Side starting on Friday of this week and I will be happy to measure your 12/3-INCH Super-Fox to verify its chambers. It cost me some money to do this research and get the hardened steel gauges made up. There will be NO CHARGE for this check for annual or life AHFCA members of record. $25.00 for non-members which will help me recover the cost of this research and the gauges. If you want to have this check done - or just talk Super-Foxes - you can hunt me down at our Bo-Whoop and the W C Letterman Cup shooting station, or at the Fox tables in the tent.

Frank

Thanks Frank,

I'd like you to check one of my Supers that is not marked 3" although the card is.

Mark

Hi Frank,

I would like to take you up on your offer to check my HE Super Fox SN 31561 with 30 inch barrels that look to be choked Mod and Full. It has "0" weight barrels and marked "3 IN" and "BARRELS NOT GUARANTEED etc" on the barrel flats. Card is marked "3" Shell" and 30" barrels. Can't decipher what it says for chokes Right and Left. Gun weighs about 8 pounds 5 oz.

Some may find it odd (and they're probably right) that I have owned this Super since June of 1972 (41 years next month) and I fired it for the first time last year. Had a lot of trouble opening the gun after firing so I thought it was the firing pins hanging up in the primer. So I didn't shoot it much.

I would like to "try" the old girl at the Bo Whoop event this year so I did some monkeying around. Frank would correctly call it Research.

It seems the problem was/is tight chambers. Just about all the shells I was using would not go all the way into the chamber without some extra urging. So using my MEC Sizemaster, I sized my Win AA and Rem Gun Club hulls as tight as I could set the MEC. That seemes to work for most of the resized hulls. With the barrels off the gun and the muzzle resting on a padded floor, I would check each empty hull to see if it would drop all the way into the chamber. Most hulls I would still have to rotate the shell til I found the position it dropped in all the way. With those I made a black mark on the base with a felt tipped pen and I would load the gun with that mark in the 12 o'clock position for aid in loading the gun.

So I have a couple dozen hulls in my "HE OK" box. Each one has a tell-tell black mark somewhere on the base of the shell. They seem to load, fire and eject quite nicely. (Still must be a problem somewhere tho 'cause most of the clay birds I shot at didn't break. Gotta figure that one out.) But no more difficulty opening the gun after firing.

I made an attempt to measure the diameter of each chamber with a set of dial calipers. Looks to be about 0.808". In comparison, my 12 gauge Sterlingworth Model 1911 Pin gun measures about 0.811". Any 12 gauge drops in those chambers just fine.

I don't know if this HE is typical but hope to find out more with Frank's research.

By the way, my HE is still pretty crisp with most all the case color, wood finish and blue. Picture below.

By the way #2, I paid $350.00 for the gun back in June of 1972 and thanks to all you guys offering to double my money.

Jolly

Double your money? Shoot, I'll add a zero to that number. What do you say Jolly?

Beautiful HE, and I'd be interested to know how it measures on Franks new gauges.

Mike

Jolly: Tight chambers in SF's is the norm, I resize my reloads to .804 on my MEC 9000---no issues. I did have tight shells in the chambers before adjusting my re-sizing station. The .804 shells work fine.
Happy you are planning on shooting your 12ga this year--it will be big fun. Craig

Mark, Jolly and Craig - thanks for your replies. I look forward to seeing you gents and everyone else on Friday or whenever. Bill, what a nice Super. I remember seeing it last year at our Bo-Whoop station. Yes, sizing your hulls on the lowest end of tolerance will help with feeding an original Super-Fox. Just a word of explanation to readers, Super-Fox chambers were deliberately cut tight using a special reamer to positively "center" the shell so that the period wads would enter the forcing cone exactly the same at each and every shot - which contributed to achieving heavy pattern density at long range. Not as much of a consideration nowadays with modern plastic shot cups, but part of the lore of Supers.

One word of caution especially for owners of Super-Foxes, the combination of a tight shell and ejectors that are fired and not recocked is a recipe for torquing an ejector, breaking it at its stem, and then ya got big problems. An expedient if using tight shells is to be sure to open and close the gun on empty chambers after firing - to cock the ejectors - and then open again to load/manually push in the tight shells.

Frank

Mike: Thanks for your offer, ie, double times 10. If I sold it, I wouldn't have anything to shoot. Guess I could always go to Gander Mountain and get me a Mossberg 500A.

Craig and Frank: Thanks for that extra helpful info.

Looking forwrd to this weekend.

Jolly

Jolly, that is one very nice Super Fox! I hunted with a friend in the sixties that shot a Spanish ten gauge double gun. He reloaded brass cases. The cases were marked with a line from the primer to the edge of the shell. They were marked either red or green for the port or starboard barrel. The lines were always verticle in the gun. The case always matched the chamber. It was his answer to hard to find paper hulls and expensive brass cases. John

The other problem I have found with Remington Gun Club steel base shell is the rim diameters are about .010 larger than vintage brass shells, sometimes the shell rim will stick in the chamber shell groove. Happens on early Parkers.