Fox Collectors

Just wanted to come on here an introduce myself. I am currently a student at Colorado School of Trades sucking up as much knowledge as possible. Most of my knowledge on firearms is modern day sporting related shotguns, so I figured this would be a great place to learn a little about these A.H. Fox guns. Here lately my tastes have kind of changes to guns that have American heritage.

I wanted a project gun and I think i have one here. Honestly, I may be a little over my head right now with this one, but i was wandering if ya'll could tell me what I have here and the value of it.

Here is what I know:
A.H. Fox Sterlingworth
20gauge 28" barrels choked Mod/Full
The forearm wood is not factory, but the metal is.
Lever is left-of-center indicating a worn locking mechanism.
Serial Number is 2596XX

Here are some pictures:

If the barrels are not pitted... you have a nice project gun there... worth is pretty hard to say, especially from those little pictures... $500-$1000 maybe. Ejectors might have made it worth more but this gun has extractors.

Small bore Sterlingworths are probably one of the most popular custom/ project guns out there right now.

What all do you plan to do to it? Do some homework around here and ask lots of questions. $25 for a membership fee is likely worth your while as it will get you access to the members forum where much greater detailed discussions often take place.

Glad you are coming around to an American Made gun... you could hardly pick a better starting point!

Cheers

Long as the barrels are in good shape, you can fix everything else. Agree, looks like a $500-600 gun IF the barrels are fine and don't require being relaid for loose ribs. That can eat up some serious time and dollars, but if your getting this to do everything all by yourself, this would give you the opportunity to go "whole hog" as they say.

Im still up in the air on what I want the end result to be. First thought was reblue the barrels, rebuild and tighten up the action, and make a new stock and forearm that reflect the deminsions of a factory Fox Sterlingworth 20ga. Were splinter forearms the norm?

Another though was to reblue the barrels, rebuild the action, and make an english style stock set for it.

Im not sure if I want to leave the action finish the way it is or have it re-case hardened. I dont believe it is something we cover in gunsmithing school, but I could be wrong.

Either way it is a refurb, so it will never be bring what a factory piece in good condition would call for.

BTW, this isnt my first American shotgun. I own a Remington 1100 and a very nice Winchester Super X-1, although its not quite the same...

What year di the chamber change from 2 1/2 to 2 3/4?

Thanks guys!

FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 – inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾ inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story, the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in "The American Rifleman" (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A recent issue of The Double Gun Journal carried an article on tests showing no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for the old 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

TDK wrote:
Im not sure if I want to leave the action finish the way it is or have it re-case hardened. I dont believe it is something we cover in gunsmithing school, but I could be wrong.

The way I look at it is you are paying good money for the faculty and staff to provide you with a first class education/training on becoming a gunsmith not just a parts changer. A significant portion of a good gunsmiths work can be derived from refurbishing classic firearms which includes color case hardening actions and various other parts. If this is not part of the curriculum I would recommend that you seek out the most knowledgeable of the instructors and have him show you the processes for charcoal and cyanide case coloring, also find and read everything written by Dr. Oscar Gaddy on the subject. He wrote prolifically on the subject in Double Gun Journal and in posts on Doublegunshop.com.

As far as you project goes I would make it the most challenging project that you can immagine because this may be the only time that you will have the luxury of having an expert to guide and critique your work unless you are lucky enough to apprentice with one of the few remaining masters.

Good luck and I am sure others including myself would love to see your project as you progress through to completion.

So this gun should be fine with modern lead and non-toxic shells? I would love to take this little guy on a nice weather duck hunt using bismuth or tungston...

To the guy that wanted pictures of the rebuild/refurb; its ging to be a while, but i would like to post pics here.

TDK wrote:So this gun should be fine with modern lead and non-toxic shells? I would love to take this little guy on a nice weather duck hunt using bismuth or tungston...

I think over the counter shells might be hard on the old girl (she was made in 1928 based on the serial number you provided). I think RST is what most people shoot out of their older Sterlingworths and I believe yours is an old one. If it was a Savage gun it probably could take a bit heavier loads. Far as ducks go and 20 gauge I think you may be limited to Niceshot (from RST) and I believe Hevishot also makes a classic load for ducks in 20 gauge that's easy on your gun and your shoulder but its only available in 2 3/4". None of those shells are cheap however. I think the Niceshot in 2.5" is circa $75.00 for a box of 25.

PS. If you can find bismuth your probably ok as well.

Double PS. Check out RST website. They are well respected and liked by most classic shooters. I've even heard Cabela's is going to start carrying their line of shells.

dang wished you wouldnt have told me that...dilemas.

Alright guys, I got the wall thickness of the barrels and they are both .025, seems odd to have both the same size; maybe it has been honed before. Seller says there is minor pitting in the barrels. what do you guys think?

Not only NO! IMO. But Hell No! with .025 barrel walls. Some will tell you .022/.027 and that may be OK for them but not my cup of tea,even with RST's. I just feel with walls that thin there is no way you can keep from denting them, and each time you would have to remove a dent the metal would be "worked" and possibly weakend.With walls that thin it seems you could almost crush thetubes with yout bare hands. Like I say just my opinion. Happy Foxing. Lee.

IMHO, if the barrels are sound there is nothing wrong or thin about .025 MWT. If it were my gun I would shoot the hell out of it with everything but magnums---and I wouldn't worry a bit about it denting, if it dents at .025, it'll probably dent at .035, too.

Lighter tubed Foxes with unmolested bores will often measure about .025" wall about 6 to 12" back behind the muzzles. I've measured quite a few of them and apparently Fox felt their hoop strength was adequate for loads in use when the gun was made. Will they dent if you're swinging on a grouse and the barrels hit a tree? Yep. The many Foxes and other vintage guns with dented tubes are testament. But I've also seen some modern guns with lighter tubes made of chrome moly get dented too. One I remember happened on a Perazzi competition o/u at an inopportune time during a championship match when it fell off a gun rack at the station. I've also seen several Beretta gas guns with dents in their barrels.

Just a question regarding the pitted bores, will you be happy with them down the road when you gussy her up? If you want to get the tubes honed then you'll be looking at a reduction in wall. "Minor pitting" is pretty subjective. Let's say you got them honed 3 thou on the radius, only about 1/2 the thickness of a sheet of writing paper. Now the walls are < .020" if the wall thickness number you were given is accurate. I've been down this road before... you have them honed a thou or two and the pitting is still present, then another few thou, still some pitting, how much farther do I go? Generally it's better IMO to make a decision on pitted lightweight barrels right up front, if you can live with them "as is" and without doing any honing. Silvers