Kautzky Trigger conundrum....

[Silvers]

So you look at a Fox with a factory-ordered pad and Kautzky single trigger in the rear position, and its length of pull measures 13-3/4". If the gun had a double trigger setup, or if the Kautzky were in the front position, its LOP would be about 14-3/4". OK, that's a little bit long for a hunting gun but would be fine for many people for live birds or clays. Anyway, the gun comes up nice and feels good when shouldered.

However the factory letter on this Fox says the "stock" was 14-3/4". You have measured 13-3/4" LOP. If the butt were cut 1" and pad re-done that would make the original LOP about 15-3/4" to the front trigger (if it had one), not likely since this is a HE SUPER FOX and a stock that long would be a real hindrance to most hunters in cold weather with heavy clothes on.

So what's up here? #1 or #2 or #3?

1) This Super Fox was really shipped with 14-3/4" LOP to the Kautzky/rear postition, and that means the butt was cut 1" at some time in the past.

2) When fitting Kautzky single triggers in the rear position, Fox recorded what the LOP would have been if the gun had regular double triggers. Therefore this gun hasn't been cut and everything is proper.

3) Fox record clerk made a mistake when he recorded the manufacturing info, he should have written 13-3/4" not 14-3/4". Again, the gun is proper.

If anyone has an original factory Fox that letters with a Kautzky/rear - it would be nice to get some measurements posted to confirm or deny #2. Thanks in advance for any inputs..

Frank

[Twice Barrel]

Frank although I haven't bothered to have my 16 gauge AE single trigger lettered I am sure that it is original and it too measures 13 3/4 inches from the Kautzky single trigger in the rear position to the end of it's Jostam Anti Flinch pad. I think the gun in question is righteous and option 2 is correct.

[MARSHFELLOW]

Silvers,

I have been a proponent of #2 on many occasions........stand by, I'll need to check a few.

tjw

[fox-admin]

If the single trigger and pad were both recorded on the card the length of pull on the card was measured from the trigger in the rear position in my opinion. One of our members owns a single trigger Super Fox that has a single trigger in the rear position with a pad and the card said the gun had a 15" plus LOP. That is the way the owner found the gun. The owner subsequently cut the stock 1" to accommodate him.
I have never heard of measuring LOP from where a front double trigger should be, it makes no sense to me. In the case of a single trigger gun the trigger is the front trigger since there is no back trigger. It would be very confusing to the customer and the factory personnel.

[Silvers]

Craig, what you've written certainly makes sense and is conventional wisdom.

All I have to say is when we're all talking Foxes in the great beyond, I want to meet the gent who ordered a Super Fox that would measure out at 15-3/4" length of pull if that Kautzky were in the front position. I have enough trouble mounting a Fox with pad and 14-1/2" LOP in the wintertime. If I remember correctly Winchester made its Model 12 Duck gun at 13-5/8" LOP to the pad for ducking in cold weather. Maybe the gent's name was Joe Goliath or something like that Frank

[fox-admin]

Frank:You may be correct, it will be interesting to compare some single trigger guns to the letters. I remember a SF with a 15" LOP with single trigger in the rear position. Now that's a BIG gun if the measurement is actually taken from the trigger.

[Researcher]

There were some big boys with long arms back in the day! I have copies of the Parker Bros. ledger for Edwin Hedderly's (Editor of Western Field magazine and later one of the California Game Commisioners) orders for four Parker Bros. doubles. In 1911 he ordered 32-inch Titanic Steel barrel, no safety, DHEs in 20- and 28-gauge, both with 15 1/2 inch length-of-pulls. Then in 1912, he upgraded to 32-inch Whitworth barrel, no safety, A1-Specials in 20- and 16-gauges, both with 15 5/8 inch length-of-pull to the center of the butt and 16 1/4 to the toe. Hedderly was a believer in the chamber 1/8 inch shorter then the shell as the 20-gauge is specifically ordered with a 2 3/8 inch chamber and the 16-gauge a 2 7/16 inch chamber. Hedderly was a California Duck hunter and wrote extensively of his experiments with high velocity loads and using these guns for waterfowl shooting.

[terc]

Frank, I measured my single trigger AE grade 20g this morning. It measures 14" from the rear positioned single trigger to the center of the pad.
The factory records show the LOP to be 13 3/4". The LOP is over a factory installed pad. The letter also describes the gun as having a pad. It is a late Utica gun.
Dave

[Silvers]

Dave, thanks for your reply. If the pad is original that would seem to indicate the factory measurement is 1/4" short of the actual. Not a huge difference but a difference nonetheless. That's the opposite situation as the one I wrote about in the first post. I'm getting more and more convinced the record card stock measurements can be off at times. Interesting.... Frank

[cargie32]

I don't think they would use any meas. other than from trigger to butt, regardless where trigger is located (as Craig said)and I might add there are 3 positions for the trigger, front, center and rear.