Very lightweight barrels on 12GA A Grade

[Vol423]

About 5 months ago I bought a set of new condition 26" 12GA A Grade ejector barrels from Tom Gibbons in Lancaster, PA. I had them shipped to my gunsmith who was doing some work on my CE 12 gauge. I wanted them fitted to my action as a second barrel set in addition to the 30" barrels on the gun. My gunsmith inspected the barrels and commented that they were in new condition and very light weight. He put them aside to fit them to my action when he got around to it. When he finally got around to the job, he discovered that these barrels are noticeably smaller at the breech than the 30 inch barrels. In his opinion, they are too small for my action. I don't know what action the barrels came from, but Tom indicated that they were a second set of barrels that were separated from a gun and that the gun was inadvertently sold without them.

When I get the barrels back and take a look at them, I would like to determine if there is a record of these barrels being fitted to a gun. Before I do anything with them, it would be nice to rejoin the barrels to the gun if the gun can be located.

Failing that, I would like to have the barrels fitted to a spare AE action I have. But I wonder if Fox filed down actions to produce very lightweight guns and if it would be possible to do that to the AE action. And of course I'd like recommendations for a gunsmith to tackle the job. The gun would have to be restocked too.

Thanks for any input.

Allan

[Silvers]

Allan, you've come across some important data that technical guys try to keep in mind. Regular Fox 12 gauge barrel sets (not Super Foxes) will vary in width across the barrel breeches, from about 2.330" to about 2.370". From my own measurements I'd say ~ 2.345" is the center of data. This is because the frames were forged and then hand profiled with the barrels before engraving and hardening. I do not believe Fox deliberately created or selected smaller width barrel breeches and smaller width frames to create lightweight guns. IMO that was done by using different barrel OD profiles and to some extent, different bores, i.e., the so-called "barrel weight' as many refer to the concept.

No big deal if fitting a larger width barrel set to a frame that has somewhat smaller width across the breech balls/fences. The barrels can be easily contour-filed to match the breech balls, then reblued. However when the opposite happens, a smaller width barrel set on a larger frame width, you got problems. It sounds like that's the case you described in your post. Since you're trying to fit this barrel to a C grade frame, I'd say it won't pay to have the frame annealed, then the breech balls reprofiled to match the barrels, then re-engraved, then re cased. It will be expensive and you'll destroy any factory original case colors on the frame. But then the original C grade barrels will be overwidth for the newly done frame, and they will have to be redone to match, to include re-engraving the barrel breech wedges, then rebluing. Sometimes projects like these are never ending.

I'd say the best bet is to trade or sell off the spare barrel set, and look for one with a width that slightly exceeds the width of your frame across the breech balls. Even if you find one that has the exact same width as the frame, the odds of it centering exactly dead nuts when fitted on the face is quite low. A few thou mismatch, high on one side, shallow on the other, looks odd and definitely will be noticed.

IMO this is a major consideration for those who see a Fox barrel set for sale, and are thinking they'll get it fitted to their frame. Our users and members would be well advised to keep it in mind when considering a barrel swap. Silvers

[sidreilley]

Thanks to Silvers for pointing this situation out for the benefit of us newcomers to the Fox world. I guess I assumed that barrel width would be standardized, within reason, for a given frame size. I'll know better now if a spare set of barrels comes along!

[MARSHFELLOW]

Allan,

That would be very cool if "we" can reunite the orphaned barrels with the gun....let us know the sn number when you get them back.

It does happen every-so-often huh Eightbore???

tjw

[Vol423]

I sent the serial number of the barrels to Researcher. If you think you might have the mate, please contact him.

[Researcher]

Allan,

Why am I being put in the middle of this drama? Like I have more time to be answering emails then you do!

Dave

[Vol423]

Dave,

With a handle like Researcher, I though you had access to the requests for letters. My mistake. The serial number is 29661. I have an AE action, so I'll probably fit it up and have the action cut down to the dimensions of the barrels and then stock it as a lightweight gun for myself. Sorry for the trouble Dave.

Allan

[MARSHFELLOW]

Dave,

thanks for asking the question that I wondered...........

tjw

[Researcher]

Any member of the A.H. Fox Collectors Association can go on the Members Forum and do a search on a serial number and see what comes up as far as other members previously requesting a card search on a given serial number. FWIW, nothing came up when I tried 29661.

[Vol423]

Thank you. Now I won't feel guilty when I have the barrels fitted to my action.

[Vol423]

I received the parts back recently. Here are the dimensions: The original C grade cut off barrels are 2.341 across the breech, while the earlier A grade 30" barrels are 2.331 and the later 26" A grade barrels are 2.311. The A barrels aren't that light at 3lb, 6 oz. The 30" A grade barrels weigh only 2 ounces more than the 26" A grade barrels.

[Silvers]

So if I'm reading your data correctly, the 26" A grade barrels you bought are about 30 thou narrower across the breeches than the C grade barrels, and of course the breech balls were filed to match the C grade barrels. If the A grade barrels were able to be fit perfectly centered (maybe yes, probably no) there would be a 15 thou step-off at each side that be very noticeable and look badly IMO. That doesn't sound like much but in reality it is huge difference, visually. I agree 100% with your gunsmith. I've never measured 12 gauge Fox barrels that were that narrow and I've measured a lot of them. However, never say never when it comes to hand fitted guns. I wonder if they were restruck heavily because of pitting, etc., and then reblued to look new? Silvers

[Vol423]

I don't believe the barrels have been redone. They are just too pristine. In addition to the serial number, there is a 2 on the barrel flat, indicating, I believe, that this was an extra barrel. I would love to find the original gun this barrel went with. I hesitate to have it fitted to the A frame for fear that the original gun will emerge.


I really wanted to make a two barrel set and with the barrel weights so close, this is a natural for one action. But I can't make it work with either action unless I have the action and the 30 inch barrels cut down to the width of the 26" barrels. I may just have to make up two guns and cut the A grade frame down to the 26" barrels.

[james-l]

I have an A grade #21707 12ga with 28" barrels that weighs 6lb 11oz, the barrels weigh 3 lb even and are 2.349 at the breech, the wall thickness on both barrels is around .100 at 9", probably about as thin as would be safe, bores are .726 and are original. I don't think a lighter 12ga would be pleasant to shoot. This gun has Krupp barrels, later style engraving and better than average wood, I would think it was a special order gun.

Jim A.