Fox Collectors

Just took the 97 year young new Fox out back to see if she would go bang. She did six times. I am concerned though, as it took considerable effort to open the gun after firing. More effort than I thought was appropriate. It opens quite smoothly otherwise. Hope I'm not imposing here with all the questions. Thanks, Jay

Thr firing pins can drag in the shells primers making a Fox difficult to open. I seem to notice this problem with Winchester 209s most of all. Try Remington primers, they seem to work best in Fox doubles for me.

Thanks, Researcher. I don't reload, and test fired just now with RSTs. No idea what primer they use. Jay

Jay,

In addition to the possibility of dragging firing pins against the shells, there is also additional effort when opening the barrels because you are cocking both hammers if you happen to fire both barrels.

When you open an empty gun or one that has not been fired, it's relatively effortless because you're not cocking the hammers. They are already cocked. If you happen to fire just one barrel, theoretically, the effort would be about half as much, ie, just cocking one hammer.

Jolly

Most RST shells are loaded in Cheddite hulls with Cheddite primers. Silvers

The resistance felt opening the gun after firing can best be described as being "stuck", so the firing pins dragging on the primers makes sense. Once you get past the initial resistance, it opens smoothly. Examining the primers after firing reveals a very pronounced, oval shaped dent in the primer. I'm sure that normal cocking resistance only adds to the resistance. It doesn't sound as if this is something to be concerned about. Just the nature of things. Anyone else besides RST making 2 1/2", 16 gauge shells? Thanks again. Jay

Polywad, Gamebore, BP, Westley Richards...ect

Another caveat. The butt stock on this gun just didn't seem right. Poor wood to metal fit, the trigger guard tang is very proud of the wood, the checkering is not flat, the checkered grip cap does not align with the grip. From photos I have seen of checkering patterns, this butt stock appears to be from a Utica gun, but the gun is definitely Philadelphia
(# 351277). This is of no consequence however, because I have always intended to have it stocked to my dimensions. I would post photos but I keep getting a message that my files are "invalid" (they're just JPEGs) when I try to attach them. Jay

What have I heard about such resistance to open in a non ejector gun is caused by something being out of time? I seem to remember someone saying that maybe the full throw of the top lever is supposed to result in the very slight raising of the hammers or something. What I heard may not pertain to Foxes since Model 21 non ejector guns seem to suffer from the same inconvenience. It may have been the Model 21 or some other gun that has this problem and wouldn't if everything were adjusted correctly. It seems to me that if the tips of the sears were in slight contact with the hammer in the fired position, the hammer would rebound enough to free the pins from the primers. Maybe a slight bending of the sear would contribute to this function. For many years, I have solved this problem by sliding my left hand farther up the barrels when opening the gun after firing. The better geometry seems to overcome the resistance, whatever the cause.

This "problem" is caused by accumulated manufacturing tolerances, and wear. Both prevent the hammer/s from starting to cock immediately when the gun is opened. Depth of the firing pin (hammer tip) protrusion is also a consideration; some stick out farther from the breech faces than others. A simple expedient that works in many cases is to use RST shells, or to use appropriate lower pressure handloads using Remington primers as previously suggested by Dave. I agree also with him that Winchester primers are prone to cause hard opening of Fox guns. I chalk it up to modern shells being loaded to higher pressures than when our Foxes were made, also changes in the design and metallurgy of modern primers. Holding the opening lever farther to the right than when caught by the trip pin, has ~ no effect +/- on the Fox hammer cocking system. Bill, perhaps that person was telling you about another maker's design. Silvers

Frank, if the "immediate" beginning of the cocking of the hammer upon the first opening of the gun contributes to easier opening, wouldn't my suggested bending of the sear bring the gun back into proper adjustment by earlier sear contact with the hammers. Not that I would take a gun apart to make this adjustment, but if the gun were already apart, maybe. I have never attempted to do this, only because sliding my hand up on the barrels seems to be so second nature after doing it a few times.